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In Reply to: Re: The difference between SACD and really great redbook posted by Mike Currie on May 10, 2006 at 13:57:42:
that all violins, be they a typical "string section" or solo, sound better warmer...I don't hate classical music. But, my experience is limited. And now matter how much I try, - I love jazz, I love world, I love brit-based-world-jazz-rock more.. I really love things like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" soundtracks, and the Mission soundtracks and Pictures at an exhibition, and the Firebird Suite, and a lot of Wagner, and a lot of Tchiakovsky, (sorry for the spelling). Now, I have this Blue Circle BC204, (Since I'm a BC dealer, I'll try not to advertize and gush), - but this is the most romantic and lush and dynamic system that I've ever had, and pretty much among the best that I've heard. And still, - it's not WARM and lush enough for me, for classical violins.
You may be able to tell from my posts that i've heard a lot of players, certainly, not nearly as many as others here, or as many as reviewers. But, - I have a pretty good feel for lots of different players. And, I can tell you in most all cases, that I hear SACD as being less noisy, less sibilant, and often, more restrained/less open than redbook.
As I've said before, if you take Jazz at the Pawnshop as an example, (and it could be due to a crappy implementation of SACD), the redbook is more alive, more open, less restricted and more "lifelike" than the quieter, less dynamic, and more restrained SACD version.
This is especially evident with something like Esoteric's magnesium transport, that adds a whole other dimension to redbook and SACD: bringing out an entirely new level of extreme detail that doesn't sacrifice any musicality, - simply more information comes through.
I think that if most of you here are saying: "Sordidman, shut up and compare them with classical," then you have a pretty valid point, as that's where SACD shines the most.
But I do want to say, as a very limited classical fellow, that before SACD has enough value to make it "worth it" to others like me, one has to buy a $3K SACD player and toss a good DAC on it to cover the 83.87% of listening time that's not available on SACD, or buy something like that kicks ass on Redbook, doesn't cost too much more than $6K, and has SACD as more of an afterthought that may or may not quite match the SACD section of a respected $3K SACD player.
I guess too.. that I'm whining a bit about the fact that beyond a few notable exceptions, - it costs more than $10K to buy a player that does both well... This is super low value IMO. When in fact, one can buy a pair of really, decent, well engineered, and great sounding speakers, or an amplifier, or monoblocks, for half of that $10K...
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
Follow Ups:
I was at VSAC 2001 when Stan Ricker and Paul Stubblebine did a demo using a 1" analogue tape console, Sony 777 and a DAT tape machine. All sources were taken from what was the original 1/4" tape that was used to record this great piece of art (yes, the guy used a dinky 1/4" machine with the mic on a boom, while either crouching in a bathroom or the kitchen, IIRC).Anyhow, all the sources were level matched and running through the same system and played back for a room of 60 or so. After multiple listens, the majority felt that the tape was superior, SACD second and hirez PCM was third.
While this isn't scientific, it was pretty neat.
Chris
You have several valid points. Perception of value is a funny thing and can easily be taken out of context. Thanks for detailing your own views and biases so clearly. It's not something many of us do well on here.I might argue the bit about the Esoteric magnesium transport, though. I referred to the SACD 'shoot-out' in the earlier message. In a direct and extended comparison between an X-01 (standard version) and the Ayre, we very much preferred the Ayre on both SACD and Redbook playback. Why? Because in general it sounded more like vinyl, which most of us - for better or for worse - use as a standard of comparison. It was, in fact, my own Ayre being used, which at the time was in for a trial (the dealer had given me the option of returning it). I kept it and have not once regretted the decision. It has provided many, many hours of pure pleasure. That is good value, in my opinion.
Mike
P.S. The objective of the above was definitely NOT to say that the Ayre player is the best thing going or certainly not to say that the X-01 is somehow inferior. I fully and completely understand why folks love their Esoterics. In the context of my system and with my preferred musical content, I made a choice. Seems sorta logical, wouldn't you agree?
I've seen and her that Ayre and I concur that it's a darn great player.Also, I have heard the Esoteric UX-1 and APL NWO re-engineer of it and was stunned at how much, (I thought), better the APL based UX-1 was to my AKM Denon APL, and to the stock UX-1.
This was probably due to the fact that the AKM DACs, output tubes, AND the amazing transport...
My point is this, (and the answer could be quite relevant), with the best implementations of redbook, like Zanden and Esoteric, and Audio Aero, doesn't it make SACD less relevant? My opinion is that these designers working today, - and I certainly include Mr. Hansen in that group, - have really IMPROVED redbook playback performance to such an extent, that unless SACD is tossed into the mix as an afterthought, - it's not that much better to make it worth paying for...
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
HowdyNah, In my, not entirely lacking, experience SACD can beat CD at almost any price point. That's not surprising, there is simply more info available in the DSD data and DSD DACs are fundamentally simpler (tho the A/Ds, editing etc. are a different story.) And that's not even counting MC where the difference is greater. Admittedly, the cost and logistics aren't for everyone, but the destination is worth it.
-Ted
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