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In Reply to: I also disagree somewhat ... posted by Christine Tham on May 9, 2006 at 15:23:49:
Here are just two problems I have never heard solved be even megabuck CD players including Cary Audio tubed units:1) CDs have a "real life" artificial midrange boost that makes massed strings very painful for me to experience.
2) CDs have a "real life" rolled off high end that takes all the impact and "ting" out of high percussion instruments.
I say "real life" because CDs actually measure well between 20-20kHz, they just are tonally incorrect and this something I don't think we can measure yet.
Because of the brick wall filters and the upper frequency limit of 20kHz for CDs I do not believe these problems can over be solved for 44.1kHz PCM.
By contrast at 24 Bit 96kHz PCM (on a great sounding DVD player) massed strings do not the coarseness of 44.1kHz but they are still not as smooth as Analog. And percussion interments have impact and that delicate "ting" again not as much as Analog.
Now take SACD. If an SACD is made from a well made Analog or DSD tape, usually the midrange and high frequencies are near correct and enjoyable. And to a lesser degree at PCM 24 Bit 96kHz. But at PCM 24 Bit 48kHz you get sound that is almost as rough in the strings and rolled off in the high percussion instruments as you do with 44.1kHz PCM.
In other words, anyone that says the CD sounds as good as SACD is deluding themselves because it is not true! . Never has been never will be. PCM at low resolution such is CD is a total joke. And I cannot believe anyone is honestly trying to this comparison.
Comparing SACD to CD is like comparing an 8 Track Cartridge to a 2 Track 15ips Reel to Reel tape.
The difference between CD and SACD is drastic and huge, extremely huge.
Even Audiophile analog cassette has greater fidelity than even the best CDs and you can prove that for yourself. Just compare ANY Mobile Fidelity High Fidelity cassettes versus the 24k Gold CD version. CDs are a low fidelity medium and will stay that way.
Teresa
Follow Ups:
"1) CDs have a "real life" artificial midrange boost that makes massed strings very painful for me to experience.""Nope, - not with a "good" CDP, - and I'm betting that if you find "your-right" CDP, - you'd change your mind. AND, - this issue is yours alone, - please don't hold that up as universally accepted maxim.
"2) CDs have a "real life" rolled off high end that takes all the impact and "ting" out of high percussion instruments. "
Nope, - see above. In fact, most folks believe the opposite. They dig SACD as the highs are more recessed and closed in and more of the natural sibilance of sibilant instruments is restrained with SACD. Check out Jazz at the Pawnshop....
"In other words, anyone that says the CD sounds as good as SACD is deluding themselves because it is not true! . Never has been never will be. PCM at low resolution such is CD is a total joke. And I cannot believe anyone is honestly trying to this comparison "
This is just your own opinion. As a matter of fact, many, many, people, reviewers, and others who have listened to many players, assert that certain redbook only players are so damn good, and so darn SOTA, - like those who love the Zanden, and again, the Estoteric, - assert that the top tier SACD players just don't do much if anything better than the more open, natural, and organic character of these players....
Your entitled to your opinion, and I respect you. But I must say that at least from my own experience, - I highly disagree with you. I'm at least one person who is opposed to your universal maxim that SACD always sounds better, - as I definitely do not..
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
Hi guysI agree with Teresa but not for the same reasons.SACD IS better than cd.DVD-Audio,well...close,but no cigar.To my ears,it still sounds digital.sacd may fool you,in a way :)
No,cd,sacd and dvd-audio,no matter how they are recorder (24 bit 128 khz whatever) can't touch vinyl in 3 areas.Dimensionality,high frequencies and lack of hardness. Believe me,i am no analoque addict.
I wish i could throw away all my lps and get a small silver disc that needs no careful storing and cleaning let alone the hussle to have to turn the lp to listen to side b. Anyway,Teresa says sacd is better than cd and yes,i agree,but i have in my collection certain hdcd cd that to my ears are better than sacd but hey,everyone is entitled to his/her opinion,right ?
Cary 306/200 Denon dvd-5910 in case you are wondering what "junk" i am using. lol
I think they actually sound quite good.HDCD properly used is supposed to remove the additive "distortions" of Digital and by adding more resolution solve the subtractive "distortions" as well.
So at least Reference Recordings, FIM and a very few others use HDCD that actually sound way better than it would be believed they could. Not as good as Reference Recordings LPs but much, much better than a Redbook CD. However 99% of HDCDs from other record labels sound nearly as bad as Redbook CDs IMHO.
Teresa
Absolutely, everyone is entitled to their opinion....As I mentioned above, SOTA redbook CD playback is so damn close to SACD, - from the SOTA devices that I've heard, - that the lack of software available for SACD, plus a certain percentage of poor SACD recordings: (remember all SACD recordings are NOT created equal), make SACD not worth the price of entry. If you've heard the Zanden redbook, the UX-1 redbook, the Audio Aero redbook, the APL AKM redbook, - whichever of those "flavors" you prefer, - they stack up quite well and even better than many of the $3K SACD players' SACD section, and they also stack up favorably with the SACD sections in their OWN players, - if they're Universal players.
I say this based on Ed Meitner's new work. I've heard certain redbook CDs that actually SOUND better than their SACD counterparts of the same music. Of course, one might say that that SACD master was done poorly. But by the very fact that we can say that, (Jazz at the Pawnshop), means that Mr. Meitner has IMPROVED redbook playback, and that the MEDIUM of redbook CAN be IMPROVED and that there was/is more to milk from the medium still.
I think that the outrageously expensive Zanden system is a bit on the syrupy, warm, romantic, side. Still it is very organic, very detailed, very real sounding, especially with violins and string sections, pianos and acoustic guitars. IMO, there is no $5K and below SACD player whose SACD section sounds as good as the Zanden redbook implementation. Now, who wants to drop over $40K on redbook? But, it is at least possible to improve redbook to the point where it beats or equals SACD... and, hey, compared to every other medium, how much more available are redbook cds?
I apologize for repeating myself, but after some thought, I think that I said it better here in this post...
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
This makes absolutely no sense to me.The perceived boosted midrange and rolled off highs are only two of Digital’s many, many problems, which I call "Digitalis". Digitalis starts to disappear at 96kHz and is almost totally gone at 192kHz. The only time SACD exhibits "Digitalis" is when it is transferred to lower resolution PCM at some point either in recording or mastering. SACDs from DSD or Analog masters do not suffer from "Digitalis"
The formats that are the most tonally correct and the closest to live acoustic music are the analog formats, especially Reel to Reel and Audiophile LPs. SACD from Analog or DSD masters does a great job of mimicking analog and real life acoustic music in a natural setting. PCM at any resolution lower than 96kHz cannot and so far has not done that.
SACD does not always sound better, it's Vinyl that usually sounds better. But SACDs sound much better than the extremely low resolution CD.
Happy listening,
Teresa
Because it's not about raw potential "fidelity" of the medium, it's about good recording quality (which shines through!)The carrier does not determine whether or not the original recording is well done and pleasing. A good recording is good on an LP, a cassette or on the radio. All of these are less than 12 bit mediums.
But LP especially at 45 RPM has more resolution than Digital, it's measured in analog terms not digital terms. Bits of resolution is a digital term. Analog mediums record and playback "musical waveforms". Digital mediums’ record "musical waveforms" convert them to 1's and 0's then on playback convert them from 1's and 0's back into "musical waveforms". As you can see Bits are involved only in Digital formats.Also recording quality (engineering) cannot shine though if the medium (low resolution PCM 44.1kHz and 48kHz) is crippled.
Happy listening,
Teresa
Teresa wrote:
"Digitalis starts to disappear at 96kHz and is almost totally gone at 192kHz."Teresa: for red book, have you tried, or considered, 96k or 192k oversampling? This is the red book solution for me. While it's not in the class of true 96k discs, it has a lot of the character, and can sound vey good indeed. And what it does best is get rid of that digital haze you hate (me, too).
Even though the upper midrange isn't as shrill and painful as before, I just can't handle the missing delicacy in the high frequencies making me feel like something very important in the music is missing. Thus keeping me from getting into the music, as I cannot suspend reality to melt into the music.Upsampling is as much "polishing a turd" as is all the other insane steps I've taken to try to make CD sound decent to me. Notice I said “to me” as it appears other people as not as sensitive and/or can hear around the gross errors of low resolution 44.1kHz PCM. I cannot so it won't work for me. Music does no good for me if I cannot connect with it. I can connect with better SACDs and LPs, I cannot with CDs. And as I have stated after the follow-up to the "Shine-Ola" experiments I will not be playing with redbook CD ever again. That painful chapter in my life is over and done with!
Teresa
"This makes absolutely no sense to me."Until you listen to the two discs back to back...
The SACD one sounds quieter, less dynamic, more restrained and restricted with less airs around the highs, less live, less organic feel, and ultimately, far less realistic.
"The formats that are the most tonally correct and the closest to live acoustic music are the analog formats, especially Reel to Reel and Audiophile LPs. SACD from Analog or DSD masters does a great job of mimicking analog and real life acoustic music in a natural setting. PCM at any resolution lower than 96kHz cannot and so far has not done that."
In your opinion, but you haven't heard the magnesium transport on the Esoteric, or the AKM DAC on the APL, have you heard the Meitner? The Ayre? On ALL of those players, the CD sounded better. Could Mr. mudman, - AKA, - Mobile Fidelity, - have tossed on some EXTRA noise reduction that also cut off info on his SACD implementation?, - like the old Dolby Labs products? I don't know... (ASIDE: I apologize in advance, but I'm not a fan of Mobile Fidelity, - in my opinion, {and I know that I've been a bit facetious}, - he cuts treble to try and eliminate sibilance or something, hence makes crappy recordings).
"SACD does not always sound better, it's Vinyl that usually sounds better. But SACDs sound much better than the extremely low resolution CD."
nope, upsampled redbook, sounds better than poorer SACD implementations: all SACD is NOT created equal. And both good SACD, and good redbook, compete well with vinyl's horrible pops, clicks, snaps and surface noise, that all that most diligent of cleaners can't eliminate after 10 or 12 plays. With just the one example of the AKM DAC, tubed output stage player in the APL, so too in the Audio Aero, Ayre, Esoteric players.Just listen to the wonderful, lifelike, detailed resolution that the magnesium transport on the Esoteric UX-1 kicks out and you'll be stunned that that "low resolution" far exceeds your previous expectations: when you get that amazing read from that transport, more info gets to your ears and amazes you...
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
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