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In Reply to: A long, rambling post/update re Classical DVD-A's posted by Chris from Lafayette on August 26, 2005 at 17:18:29:
...may be the result of the equipment you use. I use a Pioneer 578 for DVD-A, which it does remarkably well...almost as good as the Arcam DV-79 which is the best I have heard. However, it does much less well with CD and SACD. Compared to my Sony C222ES SACD machine, the Pioneer SACD looses ambience and transparency to a noticeable degree (I should note that I use the Sony's multichannel direct output, bypassing all digital processing). I get the same effect when I run the Sony with digital processing used (5-large)as the Pioneer, although not to the same degree. On redbook, the sound of the CD through my DTI Pro / Proceed DAC is much clearer than either machine.The point is...if your machine is optimzed for DVD-A, it will probably sound better than that same machine playing SACD, which it probably converts to PCM. Likewise, if the machine is optimized for SACD, it probably isn't optimized for DVD-A if it plays it at all. And a good redbook machine or outboard rig can probably beat them both when it comes to redbook reproduction.
You don't state your equipment, but it is possible that if you used different gear you would end up favoring SACD over DVD-A. Possible, no?
Harry
Follow Ups:
Well, Chris seems to own a Pioneer 47Ai connected to a 55TXi receiver via IEEE1394 on the main system - this setup would undoubtedly be optimised for DVD-A rather than SACD since DSD is being converted to PCM in the receiver.However, Chris also has a Sony NS900V SACD/DVD player on a second system. Presumably some of the advantages of SACD would be audible on the second system?
Christine,Yes – you’re right about the main source component I’m using: a DV47ai universal player connected to a 55txi receiver via IEEE 1394. For anyone else who wants to check, my systems are listed here on the Asylum.
But my 55txi receiver has a setup option for SACD direct mode, which I employ, and which (quoting from the manual) “allows you to enjoy 1-bit DSD high-quality sound directly from an SACD component, bypassing the [receiver’s] DSP circuitry”. (The DV47ai player has a DSD chip and does not convert DSD to PCM.)
You’re also right that I have a Sony SACD player, which used to be connected to my main system, but which has now been pressed into service in my computer room system.
I’ve heard each format through dedicated players for their respective formats, as well as the two Firewire-connected components I now do most of my listening on. I agree with Harry that source components could influence how one perceives the qualities of each format.
BTW, I liked your capsule descriptions of the two hi-rez formats in one of your previous posts (SACD “clean and clear”, DVD-A “clean and crisp”). I might be tempted to give it a little different emphasis: SACD “clean and smooth”, DVD-A “clean and clear”. :-)
are you sure your pioneer does not convert SACD to PCM via the firewire?in terms of "clean and clear" vs "clean and smooth" - i think the "smoothness" may be an artefact caused by ultrasonic noise affecting some amplification components.
i noticed the smoothness with my old denon avc-a1se, and thought it was a characteristic of SACD but then i discovered i can replicate it using CDs simply by switching my player to use the "option" filter which opens up ultrasonic noise from the DAC.
the "smoothness" has completely disappeared using my new amplification components (which are rated to 100MHz) so i doubt it is a characteristic of SACD.
i think the "crispness" of DVD-As is also an artefact of the ultrasonics, since that has also disappeared in my new setup.
In fact on my new system DVD-As and SACDs sound eerily alike - switching between my players playing Diana Krall Love Scenes (2ch track) i could not reliably tell the difference at all.
Christine,In some cases (the Chailly Mahler Symphony series I mentioned, which has had a couple of symphonies released in each format), I agree with you. I expect it would be hard for me to tell the difference between the two formats.
Regarding the Firewire connection, I can only quote from the instruction manual: "The i.LINK [Firewire]connector outputs every kind of digital audio that the player is compatible with, including DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, SACD, CD, and MP3. In contrast, the optical and coaxial digital outputs do not output SACD. . . " That's as much info as I have. Perhaps someone else could elaborate?
i am not sure, but i thought the 47Ai (which i think was the first player to support i.LINK) was released before the specs for transmitting DSD via IEEE1394 was finalised, and i seem to recall pioneer resampled DSD to PCM 88.2kHz since the output was meant to be directed to the 49TXi receiver (which had BB1704 DACs that did not support DSD).of course, i could be completely wrong on this, since i don't own the player. are you able to verify - is your receiver able to report whether it is receiving DSD when you play SA-CDs? My old Denon had a status button which did this (very handy when I was playing with my HTPC and trying to get it to output 44.1).
Actually, I took the easy way out and did a web search on the 47ai. I found a 1394 trade association site where the following statement is made:"The DV-47Ai has the capability of transferring digital audio information from the player to a receiver/pre-amplifier via IEEE-1394. Currently the IEEE-1394 connection allows the digital signal transfer of Dolby Digital, DTS, SACD digital bit-streams, and DVD-Audio bit-streams."
In addition, there is also an early review on the Audio Revolution web site which includes the following statement:
"Some of the early universal players didn’t offer bass management for SACD or converted DSD to PCM, thus defeating many of the audio advantages of SACD. This player [the 47ai] keeps the signal pure and in control for both formats. . . " (I've included a link to the full review.)
i would hardly consider audio revolution to be the last word in terms of accuracy of reporting (in any case, if you read the review that statement seems to be talking about the player's analog outputs rather than firewire).i think it would have been difficult for the 47Ai to support DSD given the spec wasn't finalised until at least six months after it was released. there could have been a firmware update, of course. when did you buy yours?
the only way to tell for sure is to check for yourself, rather than rely on statements on the web. many statements made on the internet turn out not quite 100% true - there's the infamous case of the sony white paper on their digital amps which extolled how "DSD-like" the amps were, but a few people who have opened up the amps found out DSD is converted to PCM internally before it even touches the power amps. ouch!
and according to alex peychev the current budget Sony DVD/SACD players convert DSD to PCM internally because Sony couldn't be bothered routing DSD all the way to the DACs.
Christine,I've sent the following inquiry directly to Pioneer:
"I've owned a Pioneer Elite DV47ai universal player for a little over a year and am using iLINK to connect to a Pioneer Elite VSX-55TXi receiver. Can you confirm that the DSD data stream is being sent over the iLINK interface when I play SACD's on the DV47ai? (This is unclear on your web site.) Thank you very much for your trouble!"
I'll let you know when I receive a reply.
let me know if you do get a reply. regardless, i'm sure you will continue to keep enjoying listening to your wonderful discs :-)
Here are some old posts from dr1394, who has tested the 47Ai in his IEEE 1394 test bed.http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=dvda&n=5427
http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=113963
http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=105413You can find more discussion by searching his posts. His conclusion was that the 47Ai sends encrypted DSD over the interface, not converted to PCM. However, he did state that the 49TXi converts DSD to 88.2k PCM internally and I think I've heard that stated elsewhere too. But that's the 49TXi, the 55TXi could be different.
Dave
I did get my answer from Pioneer today. Here it is, in its unedited entirety:“Thanks for the e-mail
Pioneer: Yes, the DSD is being sent out the i-link connections.”
So. . .
It is my belief, supported by Dave’s references to dr1394’s tests/posts and the above answer from Pioneer, that I’m indeed listening to the DSD data stream on the SACD’s I play on the DV47ai via the iLINK (aka Firewire aka IEEE1394) connection to the 55Txi via the “SACD Direct” option on that receiver. This option, as stated in the owner’s manual, “allows you to enjoy 1-bit DSD high-quality sound directly from an SACD component, bypassing the [receiver’s] DSP circuitry”.
Regarding Pioneer’s inclusion of the iLINK interface on its products before the spec for DSD over IEEE1394 was finalized, this of course would not have been the first time a company has rushed a product out to market in such a way, simply in order to be first with a new feature. We’ve all seen it happen in the computer industry.
What I forgot to mention in all this discussion so far is why I listen in this way (via the Firewire): use of the Firewire interface has been one of the biggest improvements I’ve ever made in my audio system, in terms of eliminating grunge and enhancing the realism of whatever recording I’m playing, whether it’s a CD, SACD, or DVD-A. I’m not saying that there aren’t better systems out there (as there surely are!) – only that the Firewire interface has been a significant source of sonic improvement within my own system.
... aren't you glad that you've now answered this question to your complete satisfaction?Next time an arrogant bastard like me asks a similar question, you can hold your head high in the air and answer definitively, with confidence. :-)
I am not surprised that you hear an improvement using the Firewire connection, the DACs and audio stage in your receiver are likely to be superior to that in the player.
Christine,I’ll try to answer the specific parts of your note below:
“... aren’t you glad that you've now answered this question to your complete satisfaction?”
MY complete satisfaction? I was trying to answer the question to YOUR complete satisfaction. :-) Anyway, as HAL would say, “I feel much better now!”
“Next time an arrogant bastard like me asks a similar question, you can hold your head high in the air and answer definitively, with confidence.”I left off the happy face in the quote, but in all seriousness, I doubt anyone here would consider you an arrogant bastard. I certainly respect the knowledge you show in your postings on this forum – even the posts where you trashed dual discs! (Let’s not get into that – I stayed out of that discussion!)
Dave, Christine:So far, all I've received from Pioneer is the auto-generated acknowledgement of my query, but now it seems as if I may have asked the wrong question!
I'm going to pour over the 55Txi owner's manual again - I'll let you know if I find anything enlightening. Thanks for your posts!
Christine,Will give it a try to see if I can verify anything about the DSD from any receiver readout - and report back. All I can say at this point is that I can't do any digital processing in SACD Direct mode. (That limitation would of course be expected.)
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