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69.242.23.25
Hello,I'm in need of some serious guidance PLEASE! I have spent most of my audio hobbyist life listening to only analog. At this time I would like to incorporate that nastiest of nasty words a vinylholic could speak and that is; a digital player.
Now, I would like to approach this same as I have my analog rig and that is I am hoping you will be able to cut through all of the snake-oil and BS and help me with products that are noted to be the finest-of-finest yet affordable; meaning those products that require you to spend thousands more to beat their performance, those products that never received their just-do because of the badge they carried and those products that are at the very point-of-diminishing-returns.
I'm a realist and I understand that there are plenty of products that are simply overpriced and only offer brand-bragging rights; I’m not interested. I'm looking for product that was at its best many moons ago yet still to this day cannot be beat; so used and older products are welcome.
I’m looking for a solution, whether it is via a single player or a DAC and a transport that will play the entire gamut of digital media should I need to. Your help will be greatly, greatly appreciated.
My best,
Mark Hahn
Follow Ups:
Albert at Space Tech Labs makes some very very nice Dacs. Anyone that has heard one will remmber, it's like your playing Vinyl.
Albert is a great guy to deal with and it's not only his Dac that is great, check out the rest of his products.
Hi MarkI occasionally dive into this forum and saw your earnest plea, so am offering my two-penneth worth.
I too was very much a die-in-the-wall vinylyte. However, to me this meant a music collection that ended in 1984. So I have been using CD for sometime, but always bemoaning its lack of quality. That was until a few years ago I purchased a Gryphon Adagio - this was the most analogue sounding CD player I had ever heard - it made the Wadia, in comparison, sound thin & harsh.
The other point that everyone seems to have missed - and substantiated by a recording engineer - over the last few years the quality of the analogue to digital converters used by studios has considerably improved. New CDs do not sound like the early ones - the poor quality attributed to the CD was not a problem with the CD, but the preceding mastering process. To prove this there are many remastered CDs being made that sound very good and are streets ahead of the earlier versions. So good in fact, that I just bought a 2005 reissue of a Charlie Mariano CD that actually sounds much better than the original (which I shelled out a lot for) vinyl. Incidentally, ECM lead the way on quality recordings by a country mile IMO.
I am now sufficiently enough impressed with CD, that I have sold 3000 LPs + Orbe/SME in order to, well stop my LP collection taking over my office and so I can concentrate more on new music. Yes there was a bit of vinyl void - I still have the the odd "ooh that bit used to sound really good", but I am over it now. I also ditched the valves as well - I had become fed up with shelling out £s every year or so on new valves. I used the money from the vinyl to buy an Accuphase & new Eclipse TDZ speakers (wow these are amazing).
As for PCs - I have a squeezebox3 for Internet radio - yes it sounds very good but they are a bit hair set when it comes to set up (I would recommend you look at their forum first). If you want something you switch on and play - I do not think you can beat a stand alone system - but that might be because I am of a certain age!!!!
Best of luck.
Derek
You have to decide if you are going into the SACD route...I would say old reference systems are still hard to beat, and affordable, If money is no issue I would follow reccomendations on Zanden and the like.
I would reccomend get a DAC and a transport since computer audio is coming out and the DAC and analog stage of computer companies is not really trustworthy. Get a CEC TL-1 (TL-1x, TL-2) transport still hard to beat, and very reliable, and probably an Altmann Attraction DAC...That dac plays anything....you could later hook on your computer to the DAC and play your files, If you get a computer based system that beats the CEC, keep it (I havent found one, I quit looking)
S,I would reccomend get a DAC and a transport since computer audio is coming out and the DAC and analog stage of computer companies is not really trustworthy.
I totally agree with this statement. Assuming you are talking about onboard audio, this is correct. NO one is saying that buying a dell and hooking it up to a dac or directly to an amp will yeild good sound. But putting in a pro sound card or a high quality USB DAC or a USB/SPDIF convertor like the offramp IS a different story. WHat have you listened to?
HOw were you getting digital out of the PC when you were comparing to the CEC? Were you using ASIO?
I was using a highly modded Squeezebox2, it uses a normal ethernet network connection (wifi and wired) which is bidirectional allowing for all jitter corrections, I guess they are using the bidirectional mode?
Batteries and all it was ages behind the CEC...
I havent heard the Offramp but for the price I was considering a Wavelenght Brick also...then I heard the CEC, I really dont feel like going that route again but if I get a used Offramp I might consider it...there was a big sale on the previous version a couple of months ago but I didnt have my system hooked up at the time...Have you compared the CEC against the offramp I am curious of an opinion other than the manufacturer (which I met and is a really nice person BTW)
S,My transport/ dac days are over. Believe it or not, the Lynx is stellar, is in one box, has 3 pair of balanced outs, can function as a pre amp with one analog and digital in, and the sound quality is in a different league compared to my old trans/dac combo. So no, I haven't heard the CEC...but they are highly praised.
I am not sure that the Squeeze box even modded is the cats meow...although, the transporter looks promising.
Anyhow, the convenience of a pc is really hard to beat, and for the money, the value is way of the charts.
FOr instance, there a poster at the PC audio forum that is using the same sound card I have and the PC as a digital crossover, and he says that the computer/ Lynx combo sounds better than his Marchand xm 44. That is about out the same price for the Lynx Card and the crossover software! YOu would still need a dac, and if you throw in room correction (which is esseentially free with a PC based system)....value is off the chart.
Very tough challenge, indeed.There are several real state of the art players and transport/dac combinations. Some of these have been considered state of the art for quite some time.
However, there are some additional considerations you have to take into account. Among these (and at this juncture) you should consider whether you are or will be interested in the newer higher resolution formats (SACD and DVDA). If you are interested in both or any combination of these formats, then a multiformat player or transport/dac is in order. If not, then you should consider CD only equipment.
In addition, the use of hard disk based systems could be of consideration, although I have not any experience with them, so I can not make any recommendation in this area.
As you are not considering cost as a restriction, then I would recommend the following.
For CD only, you may go with the Zanden. Nothing comes close. Next, I would consider Wadia.
For CD/DVDA I prefer and use the Muse Model 10 or the Muse Erato with the One Ninety Two DAC. One advantage of Muse is upgradeability. You can go from one model to the next with ease.
For CD/SACD there are several options such as the Meitner (perhaps the best right now), the dcs systems, the Ayre (extremely good), the top of the line Esoterics.
In any case: listen first, buy next. In particular, you should try to get dealers to lend you the player or transport/DAC combination so that you may be able to try at home. In addition, be mindful that for many, if not for all, of these systems the interconnects (digitals and analogs) may change their characteristics, so you will have to experiment with that too. And do not forget the matching of the digital equipment to your preamp/amp combination.
Happy listening!
Do yourself a favor and look at a computer based system. This is the future, the flexibility is amazing, and the convenience can't be beat.If you are a DIY guy and are comfy with computers, you can build a system that is off the charts in terms of value. For instance, for a bit over 2500, I was able to put together a silent system that offers digital room correction, can function as a digital crossover for triamping, and can upsample to 32/96khz. It sounds significantly better than my old digital rig, and I will never go back to disks...they are dying.
That was a few years ago, and with the falling drive and pc prices, it could be done for less these days. Click on the A by my monkier to see the components.
If you are not a computer person, there are more and more companies these days that are doing audiophile pc systems.
Here are a few:
www.vrsaudiosystems.com
www.zerooneaudio.com
www.empiricalaudio.com
www.wavelengthaudio.com
www.slimdevices.com
".... and can upsample to 32/96khz."I wouldn't recommend this option to someone who's sensitive to the ills of digital playback....
I also think the jury is still out in regard to RFI- A typical PC generates a lot more of it than a typical CD player.
Hey Todd,SOme people prefer upsampling. I haven't really listened to make that determination. Most of my listening in the last 2 years has been from the Lynx's digital out in to a dac (that upsamples to 192) into a midfi reciever with a pair of headphones. Fortunately I am closing on a house the end of this month, and will be able to see for myself with the big amps and speakers.
This is a sticky subject and there seems to be no clear answer as some (noteably Steve Nugent of Empirical) prefer upsampled material, and others (such as Gordon Rankin of Wavelength) say no way.
That said, I haven't heard the digititus you are discussing, but I am by no means saying that bad implementations couldn't lead to it.
It is an option, and more importantly, leaves the future opened if such resolutions are supported.
Sure computers generate some RFI...so do a ton of devices. I remember reading that this was only a concern with faster cpus, and perhaps that is why I don't seem to have any issues.
But, I am not alone on this. Recently I suggested the Lynx 22 to a poster on hydrogen.org. He was very happy with the purchase and how it worked with his proceed amp and thiel speakers, even surprised that it sounded better direct than running through his Lexicon pre. I would think that I would have heard about it if RFI was such an issue. I mean that card costs nearly $700, and certainly he would be pissed...
The RFI issue is internet myth IMHO. YMMV.
FWIW, there are some very favorable reviews of some PC transports that compare them favorably to vinyl. NO mention of RFI.
For example:
. . . . since you are already living in it. You said "I will never go back to disks". How do you aquire your music now? Do you download everything? I only ask because I am intringued by computer playback but not yet convinced.
Thanks to the RIAA, I DON"T buy music anymore. Occasionally, a band will come out with something, but I haven't bought a CD in a year or so, maybe 2.That said, if I did want to buy some music, I would have to buy a disk and then rip it. When I say I will never go back to disks, I mean that I just refuse to use them. Why play with them and endure the lack of convenience and worse sound quality, when I can rip them, and enjoy more convenience and better sound?
BUt yes, until one can download hi-res files, a disk is a must.
Dawnrazor,Please talk to me about your computer based cd playback w/ preamp, eq, etc. You are right that it is the future, and don't all cdp have computer chips in them anyways. I'm sure the rom drive is very important in it.
I have an amp (Pass Aleph 30)and speakers (home brew using Seas Excel drivers w/ custom xovers) that I am totaly happy with, but am looking for a source I am happy with. Like you, I build m own cables too.
I'm not knowledgeable about computer assembling, but can follow directions and can assemble one if I knew what to get and do.
Mike
Hey Mike,It is pretty simple.
I just bought a silent computer (the Hush looked cool and was affordable), added a high end sound card (don't let the "computer is a noisey place" argument stop you as long as it is a studio grade card like the Lynx cards- just like regular audio, you have to spend some dough for quality), and a control device (in my case, I chose a wireless airpanel, but a pda or IR remote could be configured to work, and some people choose Laptops as their pc and use USB dacs (it is quiet has built in control, and can be affordable).
The PC requirements are pretty basic...I use a 1ghz processor and one gig of ram. The main mistake people make is trying to use it as a computer AND a digital source. The requirements go WAY up when one tries to make it do everything IMHO.
Playing audio doesn't require much by way of computer processing, but if you want to add things like room correction and upsampling, you will need some more speed. That said, the only time I have found my pc wanting of power is when I was upsampling to 32/96. Of course, the better upsampler required way too much cpu, but a less good one was able to run no problem. But, it is very possible that I will just convert the files to 32/192 using another program, and then play them back (not uspampling realtime)...if I ever conclude that it makes an improvement......
The Room correction and crossovers can be part of a player such as the one I am using: Foobar (Foobar2000.org) or, you can get a stand alone software that is "always on" meaning that any sound that comes from the computer goes through the crossover, not just the ones from the player. This is only a big deal if one is using analog and digital inputs (using the computer as a pre-amp). For the most part, the software is FREE, with the stand alone crossovers less than $100.
If you don't plan on bi or tri-amping, than you could get a card like the Lynx 22. This is a great sounding card and the mixer software is is super flexible as one would expect from a studio card.. Put it in a quiet pc and the hardware is done....well, you would still want to do anything you would normally do to a CDP like using good power cords, and reducing vibrations.
The software is easy too: Eac (exactaudiocopy.de) is used to get secure rips of your existing disks. This is the most tedious part of the whole thing, but once it is done...and backed up, you are ready to go. I chose uncompressed .wavs for my 200 cd collection, but if you have more, something Lossless like Flac might be the ticket. Yes, the disk drive is important at this step, but after that, all the music comes from the hard drive, and that is why a properly done pc music system can sound better.
Play back is done by Foobar. This is free and not really for the weak of heart, since its flexibility is daunting, and the learning curve is huge, but nothing you couldn't lick especially with all the helpful people out there. One of the important things is that the player support ASIO or Kernal streaming (which bypasses the dreaded KMIXER). I use the player to control volume. I know, the anti-digital volume control crowd will freak at this, but I can't tell any detriment from doing this, perhaps because the files are padded to 32bits. Also, IMHO ditching another component in the signal path can only help...
Foobar has the added option of showing cover art, lyrics, and number of times played, etc. There are many 3rd party plugins, and there is a user interface that is 3rd party that lets you make it look however you want.
Anyhow, I dig the Pass gear, and own an x-150 myself. My PC front end is not outclassed by the Pass gear, and actually they go together really well. Very very accurate, but still musical and not fatiguing.
Finally, I will say that I have never built my own computer. Sure, I have swapped memory and hard drives, installed windows, replaced some PSUs,etc. but never built one from scratch. So, IMHO if you can build some cables, putting a music PC together is within your grasp. The software and control are by far the hardest part, and there are many good forums to help.
If you buy a player, you will find, that you have to clean the CD, put some mat on it, isolate it, add a powerconditioner or power cord. etc..basically all kinds of tweaks (sometime weird and difficult to understand why) will make a difference.
I got sick of these and went with a Squeezebox. Now the playback is as good as the Squeezebox only. No more tweaks. Basically, it is jitter that separates the digital world from the analog and computer based approach is the cheapest way to get very low jitter. You can get a modded Squeezebox for less than $1K or you can get a transporter for $1.7K.
Playing CDs is passe. Songs should be on a computer and we should be able to pick and choose easily and play it.
Yeah,For JUST the convenience factor it is worth it. Man, what I slob I can be when it comes to managing CDs!!
And better sound to boot.
To do what I am doing at this level of performance, I would have to spend nearly 10k, but I can do it for a 4th of the price, and only have to house one box!
And when the pc market really gets behind fanless pcs, things will get even better.
I'm not the biggest fan of English gear, but the Saturn really knocked me out. It can certainly get better, but IMO you'd have to spend some serious green to accomplish it--and even then, I don't think the differences would be mind-altering; that's how good I think it is. And I'm not easily impressed.
I would look to an Audio Note Transport/DAC combination. There are a lot to choose from and the more you are willing to pay, the closer you'll get to good analog - but even their cheaper ones are good.I personally have one of their transports and have recently built one of their kits which is exceptionally good (DAC Kit 2.1 Level B Signature).
If you have any way to audition then don't miss out.
you get a six input dac and a preamp thrown in ....sounds damn fine too.not the last word in cd reproduction but at its price point with the extras very hard to beat.
If I were to recommend a CD rig for those who loathe digitized sound (I'm not exactly a fan of it either), it would be the Don Allen-modified Philips carousel changer.Don't let the mundane and dated base design fool you. I know a few people who've ditched players costing several grand in favor of this unit. This is the only digital source under a grand that I can recommend for just about anyone.
If you're interested, feel free to email me for Don's contact information.
Shine on you crazy diamond.:> )
I always wanted to say that! Back to your daunting challenge. I think maybe you are asking for way too much in one fell swoop. It might be more productive to nail down one thing at a time. For starters, which digital software (format) do you plan on accumulating and why?
Rega Apollo or Saturn; if on a real low budget, Cambridge Azur 640C or Music Hall 25.2
I also am into vinyl and will without hesitation recommend the Lector CDP 7T tube cd player. I own this player and I am very pleased with the musicality of it. It is very close to analog. I also own the Nottingham Spacedeck TT with the Ace Space tone arm and Benz M2 cartridge. And believe it or not, in my system the tubes I like the best in the Lector are the inexpensive Sino Chinese 12at7's. Granted, I have only tried the Electro Harmonix, RFT, and Mullard 12at7's. It also is a very nice looking player. I do not have the latest Lector with the plastic side panels. My side panels are the wooden ones. I have not heard the MKII model and really dont need or care to as I am very happy with the one I have.
Feel free to e-mail with any questions you may want to ask.
Good luck,
BAJ
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