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In Reply to: Re: You meant 200ft that long ? posted by audiophile36 on July 14, 2006 at 15:24:17:
THis is weird. Are you sure that there isn't a typo here?I have had exactly the opposite experience. Thinner is tighter, thicker is "fuller".
Even though what you say makes sense, it just hasn't been my experience.
Follow Ups:
Hi.Guys, please talk sense even if you THINK you hear "better" bass with tiny wires.
A bass speaker unit needs larger current to drive its heavier voice coils (wound with thicker gauge magnet wires) & heavy cone. So #14 guage carries max 8.22A (basing on 500 circular mills conductor area per ampere of current flow as per the wire & cable industry standards) & #28 only carries 0.32A.
Plus the fact resistivity of #28 is 26 times of #14 per foot at20C.
How can a tiny #28 wire can provide same or larger current flow as a much a larger #14 as the bass driver needs. This is total denial of basic physics.
If that is the case, please substantiate your sonic observation with some more convincing argument rather than simply "'casue I hear so'.
Try recording with 25HZ or so synthesized bass signals & see.
c-J
Hey CJ. I appreciate the sentiment of this post and I'll try my best to comply and explain what is going on.First a brief history:
1. I read Allen Wrights supercable cookbook where it discusses how thick conductors smear the bass (this is based on Hawksfords Essex Echo- JNeutron can tell you all about why Hawksford is completely wrong- I don't have the knowledge, time or desire to refute what Jneutron says on this...BUT)
2. I tried 24-30g wire on my Maggies, and sure enough, the bass (on Maggies!) was quicker, and the imaging was much improved...everything was clearer over the store bought cables I had (12-14g I believe). With the thicker cables, the bass was indeed smeared, and a whole new world of bass resolution and notes I never heard before appeared.
3. I re-wired the Maggies internal wire (14g) with 28g wire, and it got even quicker. I was floored, because the Maggies are super quick stock.
4. I then rewired my Velodyne sub with 2 runs of 28g (makes 26g overall, I think). It was now much quicker and better matched my Maggies. Bass on the systems was no longer a disjointed blob, bet was now part of the music. AND it still worked like a sub (like a super damped one, but I like that).
5. I have made cables for a couple people (using 24-28g) that looked like they were huge cables. THey prefered the thin stuff over what they had. THese systems ranged from Logan/ Krell to HK/Wharfdale.
SO, with Maggies and cones, I have heard on many occasions that thin leads to quicker more accurate bass IMHO.
Also, please note that runs are short, and the cables are damped from vibrations, and the + and - conductors are about 1/2 inch apart.
Now, I'll discuss your points the best I can.
Guys, please talk sense even if you THINK you hear "better" bass with tiny wires.
By "better", I mean QUICKER and MORE ARTICULATE. THis might not be "better" to some, But I love it.
A bass speaker unit needs larger current to drive its heavier voice coils (wound with thicker gauge magnet wires) & heavy cone. So #14 guage carries max 8.22A (basing on 500 circular mills conductor area per ampere of current flow as per the wire & cable industry standards) & #28 only carries 0.32A.
THis sounds right to me. BUt please help me understand a couple of things. First, how do you account for reports of tube amps that deliver satisfying bass? Aren't most of them limited in current?
2ndly, lets say a big wire is used to deliver this current. What happens to the current when it hits inductors caps and voice coils? Most of these wires are very thin, and from what you say would have a problem handling that current. Maggies for instance are hundreds of ft of thin wire (looks like 24-28g). How does this current pass through them?
How can a tiny #28 wire can provide same or larger current flow as a much a larger #14 as the bass driver needs. This is total denial of basic physics
I am not saying it does. But what if it is true that the thicker wire does smear the bass? Then a thicker wire would NEED higher current as you mention. If the signal is more accurate (as evidenced by the listening- and I am not the only one with such anecdotal evidence) then maybe the current doesn't need to be as high?
All I know is that the sound is just better like this. Yeah, it is a change form what passes as bass on most systems, but once you hear it this way, it HURTS to hear bloated bass!!
Now I am not disregarding the physics you describe. Infact, I am trying to get the aggregate gauge to be lower by using 20 conductors per cable (on a 5ft cable- please know that I use very very short runs with these thin cables..never more than 8ft, 5ft personally). Hence the need for 200ft of silver.
I do find it interesting that I am not the ONLY one who has heard the differences, so maybe there is something to it, something more than the physics says.
Thanks.
Hi.To answer your question:
20 strands of #24 AG will give you AWG#10 1/2.
20 strands of #28 AG will give you #15.
I would use 16 strands of #24 AG to get #12.
One thing you must do for silver wires: burning them in thoroughly before using them. It can be tough if you don't know the proper way.
FYI, I am still burning in the 4N silver power cords (I DIY custom-made for my audiophile friends) for 10 days now, using 15KHZ wideband white noise high power signals.
c-J
Hi.Thanks your comment. Now I know where you come from.
My sonic experience is different from your or who else using tiny wires for speakers. Please come up some convincing ressoning to support your sonic findings.
While I am using #30 Kynar wires for interwiring of all my phonostages, linestages & power amps as audio signal carries next to no currents, I only use thicker wires for speaker cables & power cords due to the ampacity required to do the job properly. This is physics.
Go to high end sudio boutiques, or low-end stores, like Best Buy & RadioShack, you will find speaker wires all comes in larger sizes from AWG#18 up to #10. So are those speaker cable makers, like MIT, AudioQuest, Monster Cables, Acoustic Research, just to name a few, don't know what they are doing? Just sell bigger sizes to get more money from the consumers ????? Some tagged for over 1 grand a pair, built thick & heavy like a snake.
Copper, which is used to build wires & cables, jumps up many times its cost than a year ago worldwide. Why don't they makes speaker cables thinner to save cost & sell more if thinner gauge really sounds better than thicker gauges ???
Want to know more about speaker cables sizes, read the white paper by MIT (Music Interface Technoligies Inc) on "energy, efficiency & noise in Audio Cables". In this paper, different makes of #12 speaekr cables were used to demonstrate how to reproduce "the compelling size, focus, clarity & dementionality of the image assure that every voice & instrument has its appropriate place & weight in the soundstage."
I used two pairs of #12 245 strands OFHC copper cables for My DIY bi-wired KEF speaker systems, one to the tweeter & one to the woofer
(X'ver frequency: 1KHz). I love the bass it reproduces: tight, weil defined. What "smeared' bass? I tried my favourite 'test' CD of a live recording of a French pop-band with 25Hz synthesized bass notes pumped out distinctly from my right channel speaker rolling me over. So real, so powerful, yet so defined. (I verified this effect with a realtime acoustical spectrum analyser).A #28 tiny wire can do the same job better? I don't think so as I can't figure any tecnical reason to support such sonic impression.
If you find fine size wires do sound "better" in bass in your system(s), I suspect there are peaks & dips in the mid/bass area of your overall system due to room acoustics or whatever along the whole audio chain. The thinner conductors now you use help to smooth out the acoutical non-linearity. Subjectively you would find it "quicker" but the deep solid bass would be compromised.
You can do whatever tweaking you want, but may I suggest you to consult the manufacturer, like Velodyne, if a thinner wire like #25 (2x#28) is recommended for subs. What you have done to your Velo sub does not make any sense to me, technically speaking. It only hints me there is something very wrong in the frequency linearity in your overall system. What you did is sort of a band-aid smearing.
Back to your question on tube amps. In fact, I am using one to drive my KEF be-wired speaker systems, which deliver excellent defined bass.
Tube amps are not "limited in current" as the high current speaker winding of the O/P transformer takes care of the high currents needed by the speakers.
The leads of caps, X'over network LF inductors & the magnet wires used in a speaker voice coil are NOT that thin as #28 (0.0126"). Those wires & wires are much larger up to #10 to #8 (0.1285") depending on the power & currents designed to handle.
So here is the question: why you guys why use speaker wires thinner than the size of magnet wires used in the woofer's voice coil ??????
Your Maggies I assume are UHV driven electrostatic panels, which is
another design altogether vs speaker using voice coils. I don't want to discuss its designs here.Hope I clarify your queries.
c-J
Thanks your comment. Now I know where you come from.I don't think you do.
My sonic experience is different from your or who else using tiny wires for speakers. Please come up some convincing ressoning to support your sonic findings.
I really doubt that you have actually tried inserting thin magwire in your system. If you do this, the bass will be quicker and less bloated. Some don't like that some do...I do. And, when is it necessary to justify what one hears? What I hear is its own justification. The fact that others have the same experience and that others have heard my system and HAVEN'T said "where is the bass? Those tiny wires are killing the bass" lets me know what I am hearing is more than an abberation. If it doesn't meet your theory, I am sorry, but maybe theories should come from listening, not the other way around?
While I am using #30 Kynar wires for interwiring of all my phonostages, linestages & power amps as audio signal carries next to no currents, I only use thicker wires for speaker cables & power cords due to the ampacity required to do the job properly. This is physics.
See, I knew you never tried it. Physics is not cast in stone, it does change and recant on occasion...could be that this is one of those cases in the making. Even if Hawksford may hove gotten some things wrong maybe his conclusions (wire thicker than 24g smears the bass) are right right, and there is more to it than amperage. I am sure there is more to cable design than just the gauge of a wire.
Go to high end sudio boutiques, or low-end stores, like Best Buy & RadioShack, you will find speaker wires all comes in larger sizes from AWG#18 up to #10. So are those speaker cable makers, like MIT, AudioQuest, Monster Cables, Acoustic Research, just to name a few, don't know what they are doing? Just sell bigger sizes to get more money from the consumers ????? Some tagged for over 1 grand a pair, built thick & heavy like a snake.
Yeah, I blame monster. At one time 24g was the norm. NOw it is not, and yes it is easier to sell some anaconda like cable than something thin. THis is one of the reasons my cables are in a thick dressed up tube- so everyone thinks they are 10g or thicker.
Copper, which is used to build wires & cables, jumps up many times its cost than a year ago worldwide. Why don't they makes speaker cables thinner to save cost & sell more if thinner gauge really sounds better than thicker gauges ???
I guess you never heard of Mapleshade.
Let me ask you, why speaker manufacturers don't use 10g wire internally in their speakers if it makes such a difference?
Want to know more about speaker cables sizes, read the white paper by MIT (Music Interface Technoligies Inc) on "energy, efficiency & noise in Audio Cables". In this paper, different makes of #12 speaekr cables were used to demonstrate how to reproduce "the compelling size, focus, clarity & dementionality of the image assure that every voice & instrument has its appropriate place & weight in the soundstage."
I have read many of the white papers out there, well years ago that is. Yet I don't like 12g wire in my system. After reading one of them, I made a cable that had a thicker awg that consisted of a 14g wire for the - conductor, and a 28g wire for the + conductor (everything was solid core copper). I learned a lot from that experiment...namely that the - conductor is just as important than the +, and that thicker cables smear the bass.
I used two pairs of #12 245 strands OFHC copper cables for My DIY bi-wired KEF speaker systems, one to the tweeter & one to the woofer
(X'ver frequency: 1KHz). I love the bass it reproduces: tight, weil defined. What "smeared' bass? I tried my favourite 'test' CD of a live recording of a French pop-band with 25Hz synthesized bass notes pumped out distinctly from my right channel speaker rolling me over. So real, so powerful, yet so defined. (I verified this effect with a realtime acoustical spectrum analyser).I'll be the first one to congradulate you on being happy with your system. That is what it is about.
A #28 tiny wire can do the same job better? I don't think so as I can't figure any tecnical reason to support such sonic impression.
Just because you can't find an explanation, doesn't mean that what you are hearing isn't true.
BUt, you could start Here
If you find fine size wires do sound "better" in bass in your system(s), I suspect there are peaks & dips in the mid/bass area of your overall system due to room acoustics or whatever along the whole audio chain. The thinner conductors now you use help to smooth out the acoutical non-linearity. Subjectively you would find it "quicker" but the deep solid bass would be compromised.
This is definately possible. But I can assure you that the deep bass is there. The sub sounds like a sub...just really quick and articulate. It is just not as bloated, and maybe some would think that it is not as much, and it is not as much BLOAT. I don't think the response has suffered.
You can do whatever tweaking you want, but may I suggest you to consult the manufacturer, like Velodyne, if a thinner wire like #25 (2x#28) is recommended for subs. What you have done to your Velo sub does not make any sense to me, technically speaking. It only hints me there is something very wrong in the frequency linearity in your overall system. What you did is sort of a band-aid smearing.
Manufactures almost alway make compromised products. FOr instance on this sub, there was about 6ft of extra wire that went from one part of the circuit board to another. The actual distance was 3 INCHES, but they used a longer wire (coiled up) for ease of connection so the $5/ hour assembler would have no problem assembling it. Maybe there is something wrong with the frequency linearity of my room, BUT, it has been the same in 3 different rooms. One day, I will do some room correction and see if that suddenly makes a diff.
Back to your question on tube amps. In fact, I am using one to drive my KEF be-wired speaker systems, which deliver excellent defined bass.
Great. Try it with something thinner it could get even better.
Tube amps are not "limited in current" as the high current speaker winding of the O/P transformer takes care of the high currents needed by the speakers.
I could be wrong here, but I swear most tube amps are rated at much lower current ratings than solid state amps.
The leads of caps, X'over network LF inductors & the magnet wires used in a speaker voice coil are NOT that thin as #28 (0.0126"). Those wires & wires are much larger up to #10 to #8 (0.1285") depending on the power & currents designed to handle.
I'll give you that air core inductors are between 20g to 12g, but I don't use them because of the smearing...only foils work at those gauges for me. Yet, I have never seen 8g voice coils. It has been a long time since I played with cone speakers, but when I get back home, I'll take my sub apart and look for the 8g wires on the voice coil (I thought these things were beter if cones were light?) Please show me some caps with 8g leads that are in speakers.
So here is the question: why you guys why use speaker wires thinner than the size of magnet wires used in the woofer's voice coil ??????
Assuming you are right that they actually ARE that big, the answer is because it sounds better that way!
Your Maggies I assume are UHV driven electrostatic panels, which is
another design altogether vs speaker using voice coils. I don't want to discuss its designs here.YOu would be making a very wrong assumption here, and it really scares me that someone posing as a such an expert would make this mistake. THe Maggies are planar ribbon speakers. Mine are actually quasi-ribbon in that they have thin wires (I would be shocked if they were thicker than 24g) glued to mylar panels. Real ribbons have a conductive diapraghm usually of aluminium.
Click on the A next to my cool moniker and look at the 3rd picture down. It shows Maggie without her skirt and the WBT mod I did. You can clearly see the rows of thin wires nearly 100ft(the speaker is 5ft tall). So if I run 12g up to those posts, how does all that current fith through the damn 100ft of 24 or thinner g wire? What theory explains that?
Hope I clarify your queries.
They really weren't for me because I trust my ears on this. BUt maybe you will come up with some theories to explain what I and others are hearing....
Thaks for taking the time to reply.
...as valid, on-topic, and is a welcome perspective to many inmates, even as a casual "'cause I hear so" statement. One does not need to substantiate sonic observation with scientific proof within this particular forum. If folks might find that even a hair thin 30 AWG wire sounds best to their ear for speaker-level use, they have a right to express their opinion without risk of condesention or need of "proof" by others, while those others also have a right to question such within the forum with all due respect. It's important to allow other folks room to explore and advocate what they find to work in their experience rather than posture as an expert who's ready to teach folks a thing or two about what is proper and what is not. A cooperative attitude showing that one is here to learn as well as to assist (with a humble POV) is a productive mode, and reinforces the nature of information sharing within the hobby. There are scores of folks who won't risk public humiliation when posting in AA due to what some other folks see as freedom to post self-aggrandizing responses. Keep it real and keep it kind is a good mode to strive for, even if it means parsing words for the sake of others and the hobby in general. I fail as much as others in this matter at times, but I hope to find a more strict adherence to the "middle path", someday.Duster
Hi.I only read observation posted without any "evidence".
Sonic is personally subjective, but all these sonic observations, IMO, derive from their physics which we may not fully understand or even touch today. Time will tell.
I never demand quantative measurements on sonic effects, which I know too well instrumentation available todate is so limited to deliver valid results.
Above said, all those sonic observations are based on some science we are yet to explore & to comprehend. Yet reasoning along the same direction can surely help us understand a lot more.
Don't get me wrong: I am a subjectivist, but a reasonable one. I always check up my subjective sonic findings against any possible
scietific explanation which I know or I am yet to learn more. There is always some explanation behind anything happens.The question is: do you want to find out why & how such observation takes place. One can easily settle down with "I hear it so" which could be erroneous due to a lot of factors one may not understand.
If such observation is up against its natural science, then such observation could be questionable & then we got to find other more
reasonable solution for it. Hence my response to the posters above basing my knowledge in such field. I am open to challenge if whoever can come up a counter-opinion with convincing explanation, scientific or not.This is what science about: investigation or study concerned with
a body of observed material facts.By doing so, we would not easily fall into the traps of those commercial snake oils, e.g. ceramic cable lifers we discussed earlier here.
c-J
PS: noway it is my postion to 'scare off' my readers here. I just want to read something which are at least convincingly explainable, scientificlly or not, regardless.
HowdyYour numbers ignore the fact that high efficiency speakers can work just great with smaller wire than lower efficiency speakers. Heck I don't think there's a wire near, say 20 or 22 gauge anywhere in my Cain and Cain Abby speakers (I'm just guessing, but they are relatively high efficiency single driver speakers.)
Conversely I use 16 (or 18?) gauge silver rod between my 91.5 dB efficient 350W speakers and my 750W monoblocks. It sounds pretty darn good at a level louder than I'd ever want to listen to for more than a moment (as well as at quieter levels :)
-Ted
HI.Most commercial speakers use lousy tiny wires for internal wiringa as I've seen too many. This is the so called 'standard' way to build commercial speakers - to make more money.
Nobody stops you to replace them with large gauge wires of better conductivity.
Likewise, if you care you check up the stock X'over networks inside your speaker system, you'll want to replace it with better parts ASAP.
I've done so with my KEF speakers many years back.
By doing so, your already "high-efficiency" speaker will sound ever louder with the same power input.
c-J
Full range single drivers have no crossovers. Also low power SET tube amps dont deliver much of any current so a thicker wire is not needed at all....in fact they usually just muddy things up.
"If it sounds good it is good!"-Ernest Lee Farley III-
HI Ernest,in fact they usually just muddy things up
Now THAT is what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!
HowdyAt least on my Utopias, a larger gauge doesn't change the freq response (e.g. more bass) or the loudness but it does make it harder to follow the inner detail like a single oboe in the middle of bombastic orchestra.
-Ted
HowdyChanging the gauge doesn't add efficiency. If the speaker wire is too small it will choke the speaker, but not otherwise. I'm just pointing out that your post about the amperage (and gauge) required was bogus for some people's systems on both ends of the spectrum.
There is no cross over in my Abby's.
My Utopia's have something like 4 6 gauge wires going to the bass driver, let alone the rest of the crossover.
You missed on both accounts.
-Ted
My experiences in experiments is lighter solid core or similar gives tighter more solid bass & completelly the opposite with larger gauge.. Yep well all hear things diffrant I guess.......I run 24 ga..........in short runs.
Yeah I use 28g in 5ft runs in a bi-wired config. It is truly wonderous when the bass matches the mids and highs.Too many systems I have heard have the Bass as some "disconjoited blob". Put in thin wire, and it actually keeps up with the rest of the music.
Well IMO thinner wire sounds like it has more bass and thicker wire sounds like it has less bass.I contribute that to the damping properties of the cables.
"If it sounds good it is good!"-Ernest Lee Farley III-
E,LIke I said, the theory makes sense that thicker cables would allow for better control, and be perceived as less bass.
The thing is that everytime I go to thick conductors, I get more bloated bass.
Are these solid core or stranded constructions you are comparing? Are they tube amps and what kind of speakers? Maybe my Maggies are such that they react differently than other speakers? They are essentially flat in terms of impedance, and consist of HUNDREDS of feet of thin wire themselves. Maybe that effects what I am hearing?
I mention this since I have had the same results in many differnt systems, with the speakers being the only common denominator.
Ahhhhh.......you might have a point Dawnrazor.The smaller gauge wire is solid core and the thicker gauge wires have been stranded.I think stranded is the culprit for the bloated bass because my own designs are multiple runs of individually insulated small guage solid wire and the bass is not bloated at all.
"If it sounds good it is good!"-Ernest Lee Farley III-
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