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Dear Sirs,my current problem is that the sound from the digital front-end lacks body (expecially with voices).
It is clear but thin and lean expecially in the midrange.
Are there any cables (interconnects and speaker cables) that are known to give body to the sound ?
Actually I think that the main culprit should be my speakers (I have a pair of Dynaudio with a D52 dome midrange, that is known to be thin and lean indeed).
Anyway a set of cables that could mitigate the effect would be very interesting.
Price is also a matter. They should be cheap.Thank you so much.
Kind regards,
beppe61
Follow Ups:
Instead of using cables to try to equalize your system on a trial and error basis, why not invest in a Behringer DEQ02496 digital equalizer? No more expensive (and maybe less so) than the cables you're considering and will do an infinitely better job at tayloring your sound.I like nice cables, but I'm not a proponent of using them to "fix" things. The Behringer is designed for exactly that purpose, is almost infintely customizable and does not cause other problems.
I've always liked the Dynaudio mid-range domes. I'd never heard that they tend to be thin and lean.
Dear Sir,thank you so much for your extremely kind and interesting comment.
I understand you have experience of Dynaudio mid dome.
I must confess you that here I am quite disoriented on this topic.
I read somewhere on the net that the D52 (that is mounted in my speakers) is a bad mid. Much better would be the D54.
I would be very interested in hearing your opinion about this driver.
If I understand right you like it overall.
Please let me know.Kind regards,
beppe61
Dear Sir,Thank you very much fro your kind and valuable suggestion.
The suggested price of the DEQ2496 is 380 USD.
I am now waiting for a pair of Cardas 300B I purchased.
These cables are said to adress exactly the problems I am experimenting and in particular the most evident and negative to me: grainy voices lacking body.
I listen expecially to CDs of songs, chorus, cantata, etc.
I like human voice above any other instrument (the second is piano).
In my experience if one gets human voice (and piano) reproduction right then he is on the path to heaven (musically speaking of course).Kind regards,
beppe61
... in the speakers, dear Sirs.
The mid-range dome driver D52 is inherently lean and maybe only with a very warm (colored) amplification could be corrected.
It seems that in order to get voices with more body a cone mid-range is required.
I really think I will say bye bye to my present boxes in the near future.
Anyway thank you sincerely for your always extremely kind, friendly and valuable help.Kind regards,
beppe61
That should help, depending on the speaker design and the distance to the wall.
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Regards,beppe61
One brand that hasn't been mentioned, is Analysis Plus. Try their oval 9 cables.
Jack
Hello Beppe,Acoustic Zen Satori, Satori Shotgun or Hologram II..speaker cables,
Silver Reference II or Matrix Reference II in IC's...Btw, power cords can also add significant body to the sound, so maybe
Acoustic Zen Tsunami II..?Audience Au24 series of cables are also EXCELLENT too..maybe a bit more refined as well..
Hope this helps
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men #
You know, Samuel L. Jackson.:)
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Pulp Fiction...I just LOVE QT!AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
Yep. The old PS Audio xStream Statements, which I just bought for exactly that reason.Mission accomplished.
I alo have the xStream Plus speaker cables, which have basically the same sonic signature.
As a matter of fact, PS Audio itself claims their cables produce more "body:"
Most systems are “thin”
Our experience has been that the vast majority of audio and home theater systems are a bit “thin” sounding. By thin we refer to an apparent lack of mid-bass energy that can easily be heard in the lower regions of a persons voice, in the amount of “body” in an acoustic instrument such as a piano or a guitar.
This is a phenomena not recognized by most until you hear the missing info returned to the music; then you can't imagine how you ever lived without it!By designing a cable that is abundant with information in the areas where most systems are weak, the combination is simply magic.
Very interesting excerpt indeed.
Those PS Audio cables seem to adress directly the problem.
Thank you so much.
Kind regards,beppe61
"Missing information" is not what a true high performance power cord lacks. PS Audio tends to address power cord cable gauge (large) as a solution while ignoring dielectric involvement (PVC). PS Audio's power cords tend to sound "slow" as a result, IMHO.
I don't use their power cable, just the IC (for one particular purpose) and the speaker cable.I'm extremely pleased with both of these: neither supresses detail, IMO, at least not in my system. The Nordost Blue Heaven, for example, which I use extensively elsewhere in my system, I allow nowhere near my SCD-1; it bleaches the sound, to my ears.
I wouldn't rule *any* cable out of court because I disagree with it theoretically. The proof of the pudding is in the listening, and there are thousands of different components, and millions more combinations, most of which will sound different with different cables. Luck plays a major part (barring borrowing of the cable for advance auditioning).
I don't know what PS Audio uses as insulation for their IC and speaker cables, but I've found that a low dielectric constant insulation material is best for all applications (other than a select few devices). my 2 cents
nt
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A computer power cord. I found it quite amazing that upgrading a computer power cord offers a huge improvement to digital audio playback (MP3, AIFF audio files, etc). As placed on my Apple A/V computer; I enjoy a PVC insulated power cord (a Maxcable product that's a dead ringer for the PS Audio Microlab power cord) over those that use Teflon or FEP. The former just sounds more full and correct to my ear when placed on my computer.
You said: ”Actually I think that the main culprit should be my speakers (I have a pair of Dynaudio with a D52 dome midrange, that is known to be thin and lean indeed).”That is probably the main culprit which should be addressed first.
If you haven’t, I would play with speaker placements. Even moving speakers 1 inch closer/further from back or side walls will make a huge difference. And experimenting with speaker toe-in or toeing-out will also have a profound effect on speaker sound.
A good quality Equalizer (such as Alesis 30 band 1/3 octave graphic equalizers) is also another option if you haven’t consider it. That can address some of your speaker sonic shortcomings :)
Some cables do not sound their best if they are in contact with carpet or wood flooring. Some cables are relatively stiff and transmit acoustic vibration into the connected equipment.You can explore these possibilities with the cables you presently own by providing supports that are dielectrically benign and acoustically damped.
I've had good results with making cable supports from stiff paper rolled into cylinders about 10 cm long and wrapped with Teflon thread-seal tape (found in plumbing supply stores). The cylinders are filled with plastic bags containing oil-absorbant clay granules, similar to litter used for cat boxes, to eliminate their organ pipe resonances. The cylinders dig into the carpet pile, much like spikes, to give firm support to the cables.
These things are very cheap to make, and all your audio cables (including power cords) should be supported by them if the cables now rest upon the floor. Try this, and see if the bass and midrange improve.
Cable damping is not a cure-all, Al. I find that cable vibration/resonance tends to produce bloom or a lessened focus which creates a presentation with perceived "more body". I don't think this is beppe61's issue. just my 2 cents :-)
There could have been a specific low-frequency coupling in this case, however.The sonic 'warmth' from allowing my cables to rest on Nylon carpet is really just a fuzzy bloat in the midbass. It only takes me a few recordings to pick it out once I learned what real bass sounds like on my system.
I found that lifting cables usually took away some body and warmth from the sound. Even though I've known about the lifting tweak for almost 10 years, I didn't do it, untill about a year ago, when the trade-off was worth it to me.
Jack
How cheap "is cheap" for your needs? Two possible choices could be a used pair of Cardas 300B Microtwin, or at a higher price point a used pair of Harmonic Technology Truth-Link. Both have notable sonic signatures (but are quite musical about that factor), however, "giving body" to a signal is a desire to add a sonic signature, as it is.
Dear Mr. Duster,I must confess you that I am also anxious to verify if what AUDIOADVISOR site reports is indeed true, i.e.:
" Audiophiles just love the sound of 300B cables, especially with digital components" (and I listen only to digital sources).
"300B delivers a rich midrange, ultra-smooth highs, and surprisingly tight bass " ( just think that now I have a poor midrange, harsh highs and sloppy bass).
I am very very curious.
I will report anyway.Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe61
Dear Mr. Duster,
thank you so much for your very kind, friendly and valuable reply.
After years and years of hesitation I buy today a 0.5 m pair of 300B.
I remember perfectly your very valuable post about how a 300B worked giving more "body" to the sound of your tuner (a Nakamichi ?).
Other thing I considered it is that in MA RECORDINGS they have choosen this cable to wire the microphones used in several of their great recordings.
As soon as I will received it I will post my impressions.
Thank you so much for your great suggestion.
Kind regards,beppe61
Italy
...you are quite welcome, and I expect that you will like the Microtwin's added body. While it is not the last word in transparency (far from it) it is very enjoyable from a euphonic yet still "proper" POV when connected to certain devices/particular systems (I use it in my recording studio for a video device's audio feed which adds a certain lushness without gross coloration). Within my main system, I've since added "more body" to my Nakamichi ST-7 tuner (a higher-end model) via a DIY VH Audio Flavor 4 power cord, which allows me to use a more transparent IC for the more-full sounding gestalt that I desire.
Dear Mr. Duster,thank you so much for your very welcome and valuable directions.
To be perfectly honest I must confess you that I am trying to change a duck in a beautiful swan.
At presentl my digital front end is the following:
- a cheap SONY DVD player DVP-NS32 with a captive power cord
- a Supra Trico digital cable
- a Behringer SRC 2496 with XLR-RCA adapter on the analog outputs.
My hope is that the insertion of the 300B Microtwin after the dac gives some more bloom, body to midrange (voice) and tames some little harshness in the mid expecially (voices are a little grainy).
I am consciuos of the fact that the cable could cut away some extreme frequencies, but I have now problems expecially with the midrange (a very important part of the spectrum for me because I love chorus and singers groups).
As I mentioned, the fact that at MA RECORDING they use this very cable for wiring their mics to make their absolutely nice recordings is another fact to take into account.
I am very very anxious to receive the cables and try them.
I know that are the entry level products by Cardas.
I have a friend (much more passionate than me) that has Cardas Neutral Reference cables (ICs and SCs).
I tried just one pair of them before my preamp and I noticed almost immediately a remarkable improvement.
Now I think that cables must be considered as components of the system and not just accessories.
The problem is to get enjoyable performance for not great deal of money.
I am always looking for the poor man Golden Reference eh, eh, eh.
Anyway, do you think that a special cable for the DAC could give nice improvements?Thank you very much again for your extremely kind help.
Kind regards,
beppe61
.
I much like an XLO Reference Type 10A power cord on my DAC, however, you might find a VH Audio Flavor 4 to offer more presence in the midrange if the Cardas Microtwin IC's still don't provide as much body as you desire.
Dear Mr.Duster,thank you so much for your always kind, friendly and extremely valuable indications.
I tell you that I will try to place a IEC socket in the transport and I will spend the next days experimenting power cords like that one you mention either on the dac and the transport.
Thank you so much again.
Kind regards,beppe61
For your expressed needs; I recommend that you build a DIY Flavor 4 power cord for use on your transport (email me for DIY tips) if you wish to save money. Otherwise, buy it premade since it still offers great $ value.My digital front end's happy combo is a VH Audio Flavor 3 placed on my transport (non-grounded) and an XLO Reference 2 Type 10A on my DAC (grounded). The VH Audio Flavor 3 as placed on my transport offers a full-sounding bass presentation with (also) excellent soundstage and imaging, and sounds quite "natural" (analog), to boot. However, you might find that a VH Audio Flavor 4 as placed on your transport (many folk's swear by it as placed on transports) may provide a more "profound" midrange for your particular system's needs (I think it would). I suggest that you email Chris at VH Audio for advice.
You want a cable to correct a system weakness? Try Cardas Golden Cross. It will add weight to the lower mids and roll off the highs.
Dear Sir,thank you so much for your kind and valuable suggestion.
I will try Cardas. Actually they are very well regarded.
Do you think they are also natural or do you think are not completely true to music ?Kind regards,
beppe61
You are either suffering a misconception or miscommunicating what you need. If cables "give" you anything they are distorting! However, cables, like any component, can be limiting what they transmit and often do. That's probably your real problem.I used to think that ICs made a difference but that it was mostly more subtle than speaker cables. Experience has modified that opinion.
Last year I purchased a set of copper-berylium ICs with very low metal mass connections from Joe Mazzaglia (Auricle Audio Design) on Audiogon. He's been selling them there lately again. They are little wonders! His retail is about $200, but at auction they seem to run in the $50 range, which is a real bargain for anything good, much less this good.
What they did for my sound, in replacing a great silver IC set (which replaced a great magnet wire DIY set, which replaced the usual crap) was to add detail, not detract from bass or treble extension at all, while letting more of the midrange "body" through. IN fact, they also did something that I would have sworn was not possible without a DAC change: they reduced the sound I had thought was digititis, that tizziness and glassy sound in instruments like piano. In other words, more lifelike all around.
I cannot tell you if the secret is in his rather stiff wire or in the low metal mass terminations or both, but I don't care - it's a great recommendation I'm happy to make to you.
Dear Sir,thank you so much for your great suggestion.
Excuse me just out of curiosity, could you tell me something more about your replaced " great magnet wire DIY set" ?
It sounds extremely interesting to me this idea.
Did you build any particular DIY project?Thank you so much.
Kind regards,
beppe61
I made a set of modified Greg Weaver "Signal Tape" (sometimes call SST in his later silver version). It's wire wrap (magnet wire?) encased in 3M packing tape and it works well and is dirt cheap, and if you can solder on your connections you're in business!But I would so highly recommend using silver interconnects (there are many out there from relatively inexpensive to unbelievably expensive) or the Be-Cu type wires I'm using.
Check into Silvery First and/or Auricle Audio Design on Audiogon for two of the less expensive and very functional types. I can recommend both of these from my positive experiences, since you aren't seeking the high priced spread....
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