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RE: I'm Tired of People Making Claims They Cannot Substantiate or Are Plain Wrong.

Posted by morricab (S) on August 28, 2015 at 01:30:03

In Reply to: RE: I'm Tired of People Making Claims They Cannot Substantiate or Are Plain Wrong. posted by Peter Qvortrup on August 27, 2015 at 07:53:48:

It seems you have overreacted to my error in the pricing of Silver vs. Copper. Let me first offer a Mea Cupla for my incorrect statments on the price of the material. I usually look things up before writing...this time I did not. However, you will agree that highly purified copper is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than bulk copper prices, whereas bulk Silver is always at least 3N pure. That will close the 100:1 gap considerably I would argue. The Ohno continuous cast copper is probably with the factor range I offered before.

"your assumptions are so broad "

Whereas I wrote: "Your HiB C core is using laminations from grain oriented silicon steel, yes? What thickness are those laminations? 0.35mm? 0.2mm? Less? What else would set it apart from others of simliar materials? Vacuum impregnation of resins? Copper wire choice? OFC? 6N? Choice of insulation materials? teflon? paper and wax?
"

I actually just asked you a lot of questions, none of with you answered, BTW.

Actually I didn't make a lot of assumptions. In addtion, I gave you a very concrete example of an actual product. BTW. the turns ratio of said product is 5.6:1.

"Ours is 33:1 which makes it hard to wind for example."

Your website lists two types of preamp transformers and the other is 5:1 and they cost the same. Why is that if 33:1 is so much harder to wind?

TRANS-011/01-A T011-1-I-IAPT-F As above Copper AN Improved HiB As above 5 : 1 £ 353.60
TRANS-011/01-AS T011-1-S-IAPTIAPT-F As above Copper AN Super HiB As above 5 : 1 £ 424.00
TRANS-011/01-AN T011-1-U-IAPTIAPT-F As above Copper AN Ultra HiB As above 5 : 1 £ 635.20

Note that many of my questions are not answered by the very limited information you have here. What are the lamination thicknesses of the different grades? Is this defined somewhere? What grade of copper is used in the windings? What insulation?

"Copper at today's London Metal Exchange price costs $ 4,958.00 a tonne cash, there is 35,274 ounces in a tonne, so if silver is $ 14.00 an ounce (and may I say here that it is cheap at the moment, it was $ 20-25 an ounce not so terribly long ago) then it would cost $ 493,836.00 a tonne, I think even you can work out that this makes silver close to 100 times the price of copper would it not?
"

Again, only assuming that the grade of copper and silver here are equivalent and for audio it is well known that higher grades of copper matter and also cost a lot more money.

"Now I would say that that discrepancy just based on material costs makes your assertions pretty worthless, wouldn't you?
"

No, because you use copper in the lower versions (I won't discuss silver further) and from what I can tell, Grain oriented Silicon steel of a certain grade and thickness (both so far undisclosed) and what I have found is a very high grade of Silicon steel with pretty thin (not the thinnest though) laminations using high quality copper and insulation materials. So, discrepancy based on materials costs are fully warranted for a discussion here. The price difference is nearly 50% and one might argue that the ones I have found use better materials than are in your bottom model.

"As an aside Tangos transformers are pretty expensive, but I have never seen anyone complain about them the way they do with ours, which I find interesting.
"

Don't know, just know they aren't available anymore. Still, I think they were cheaper than your upper (copper) models.

"By your own admission you have not compared our transformers to the ones you claim are similar but cheaper, so if I offered you a $ 100K bet they are not would you take it?
"

Are you offering me a $100K bet? Be careful what you offer. I see no reason for you to make such an unfriendly wager (if you bet me a beer or something I would regard that as friendly...$100K is most aggressive and arrogant and decidedly unfriendly).

"Consider what not taking it would do to your credibility and perceived "wisdom" and "advice"?"

Again with the arrogance. You are obviously trying to bait me so I won't rise to the bait.

The reason is simple: I have never claimed sonic superiority for EITHER of the premap transformers in question so there is nothing to bet. It has no impact whatsoever on my credibility and perceived "wisdom" and "advice". I simply questioned (yes questioned not accused) your material costs in light of what I have found elsewhere. Those elsewheres also claim high grade materials and advanced techniques. Obviously listening is the final arbiter but I was not even approaching that subject.

It's sad that you want to degenerate into something so crass. It would have been much nicer of you to say something like: "I can see where you are coming from but rest assured our transformers sound better and I can prove it to you"...or some such thing.

Truth of the matter is I like your design philosophy. I have a zero negative feedback system based on SET amplification, tube DAC (not a NOS DAC but a true ladder dac with only tubes in the circuit) without feedback, an all tube (including power supply) phono preamp and preamp.

I have been impressed with some of your amps but I have to admit not your speakers, which I find do not sound not free like a good planar or horn speaker. I have heard several models now at the local AN dealer. The DACs, I have heard up to level 4, are good but somehow not my cuppa.

Your amps though I think are special. I really enjoyed a pair of P4s a few years ago and am really tempted to try an Oto SE signature (can't really afford your upper models with the silver trafos) or Conquest Silver SIg.

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