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RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more

Posted by Satie (A) on September 2, 2010 at 11:16:33

In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Davy on September 1, 2010 at 18:07:36:

Sorry not to have picked up on the high crossover values, I did not find the right info so had to back calculate obviously not precise enough.

By the way, did you check if both amps are in phase? normally they would be non-inverting, but you need to know with certainty, if one inverts phase, you will need to flip the polarity. I find it odd that the near and symmetrical crossovers are sounding thin. That would normally indicate a phase issue, but the Behringer is supposed to be operating without phase. I think I need to go back to the manual again and take a look, its just been too long. The LR2 should be in inverse phases between the top and bottom drivers. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/filters.htm#2 so there is the question of whether the Behringer inverts or not - if it does, that would be the probable cause for the thinness.

It is a good thing that you are finally getting some satisfaction from trying out the Behringer's adjustments. you should feel more free to experiment. E.g. I actually tried out the Tympani as a two way among other things. You should not be so confined to playing so closely to the stock values and recommended active configuration. The less fun part that is still missing is measurement.

The easiest thing to do is to get an SPL meter and a test CD with a 1/3 octave warble tones - I use mostly these because I can hear anomalies rather than watch the FR sweep on the computer and the sweep being so quick, you have no idea what the peaks and valleys sound like. I write it up on paper and stick it in the spreadsheet. You need to obtain a calibration curve for your meter or measurement mic.

Re stepups. I really like the high gain Melos. And the Dayton Wright, despite being quite ancient, is phenomenal in detail and bass impact. While I agree that there is a bit of "wild drummer" effect, I don't think it is coming from the stepup, but from the recordings. Outside of classic Jazz, they are mostly transistor recordings and that is what it sounds like when you amplify the mic feed from the drum kit with a transistor mic preamp - particularly the older ones. The transformers always have the same problem they drop off on the bass, particularly by truncating peaks. So it might seem more natural, but I would rather do it by processing selected recordings than build it into the fixed setup. Nevertheless, I would be happy to try it out. Always happy to be proven wrong and improve sound in a way I did not expect.

As I was telling you, Magnepan uses really suspect components in the crossover in order to keep prices down. It is really inexcusable to use an iron core inductor and an electrolytic cap in a $6000 (today's equivalent) speaker. If you want the functionality, just build your own. The schematics are available, the best components are known, as are the best "values" to do it at high quality at a reasonable cost.

BTW, have the Lpads improved any yet?

Re cartridges
I think I understand what you are saying about the 304. It was probably the next generation broadcast standard cartridge - like the 103 was for decades. Therefore, the tooling was made to last and sales were expected to be rather constant for years. So pricing remained constant for decades till the Yen went out of whack during the crash in 08-9 and stayed up since. So now you are still not paying for the ancient tooling. I was going for a Clearaudio MC when the Garrott went on sale for about the same price and I jumped on it. It is competitive with any MC up to $2000, including Garrott's own. It is in a way in a similar market position as the Soundsmith cartridges. A very good microline on a high compliance cantilever and relatively light high flux magnet sitting in a big coil. It is not as light as a few wisps of copper wire on an MC, but then it does not require a multiplicity of gain stages that cost quite a bit to build well.

With the Garrott the Melos phono stage delivers over 10 volts of output. I had actually swapped the output tubes with 7dj8 to lower output. I actually saturated the inputs of the Musical Fidelity HTP when I was using it for pre duties for a while - even with the 7dj8. Since the Melos SHA Gold pre is being used with the tube active out driving the mids and the passive output connected to the active crossover for bass and treble, the input impedance seen by the phono stage had fallen to something like 8 k ohms, which is a little low, so I swapped the tubes back to Mullard/National 6922 for fuller voltage output and the little bass curtailment disappeared. I think the output with a normal low output MC would be in the single volt range. Quite useful.

You are being very generous, you will be sending out your MG3.3 for me to try if we go on like this. Thank you very much, but lets keep this within reason, I am across the Atlantic after all, I should not be borrowing your main components...

I never had a Troika in my system, and I thought it sounded rolled off on top when I had an opportunity to listen to it on a then new Wharfdale monitor based system at a friendly dealer's who also did Linn and Quad if I remember right. They had set up the speakers the prior day and had just let a disgusted customer out the door. I offered to help diagnose the problem after giving the system a short listen, and having listened carefully, I realized there was no high treble output at all. The source was Linn LP12/arm (Ittok?)/Cartridge (Troika?). I went and looked at the source, integrated and followed the wires to the speakers, where I discovered that the biwire jumpers were not put in place so the tweeters had no feed. Their guys fixed it up and I listened again, still not much going on in the treble. Suggested they use something else for a source. They put on a CD player that I don't recall, probably a Rotel and there was treble...ugly treble - but it was there.

I can say that I never liked the LP12, it always seemed steeply priced and oddly voiced. Never got the point. My own Lenco, while alive, was so much more fun, My friend's Garrard 401 was so much better, and while I appreciated the Rega's strengths (I bought one), I did feel that it was a step down from the Lenco - but for the lower motor noise and bass feedback. The Rega sounded a lot more like the LP12 though not quite as much a collection of monotones pulled out of the music.

I have to say that your comparison with the Orb/SME has me wanting to hear the Orb-SME with a 304 rather than a Skala. I am rather disappointed with the Lyra cartridges. They are all very good, but lack some excitement and leave me disappointed when I see the price tag. Its like the Crown Jewel, when it was marketed as a high end cartridges, lent out for reviews etc. it was well received and sold slowly at $2k. A few years later, a guerilla movement around the same cartridge selling at $500 and change as the Shelter 501 had tons of them sold direct and outside the dealer network. Then they got incorporated into the dealer network, came out with 4 more models, and doubled the price. No longer as great a value. So when you compare an excelent production cartridge selling at high volumes to a hand crafted one, you should not be surprised that the sound quality at the price is very much a better value on something like the 304.

Edits: 09/03/10

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