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RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more

Posted by Davy (A) on September 1, 2010 at 18:07:36

In Reply to: RE: Tweeter difference problem with 3.3Rs and more posted by Satie on September 1, 2010 at 14:35:20:

Hi Satie,

Thanks so much for calculating the 2nd order Butterworth HP crossover at 250Hz, - that's brilliant will get the parts and try it out very soon.
Tonight I tried out using 2nd order LP Butterworth as well as 3rd order LP Butterworth for the bass (coupled with the 2nd order Butterworth 250 Hz HP on the Behringer).
Both the 3rd and 2nd order Butterworth LPs sounded OK at about 200Hz. The 3rd order does sound a little better though, - just a bit more defined. Certainly these lower, mopre closely spaced crossover points sound far better than the higher ones I was using before, - better midrange by far.
I just realised one I should have tried and have not done yet, - I should have tried 2nd order Butterworth LP with 1st order HP (at about 300Hz). That might work better than the rather thin sounding 3rd order LP and 1st order HP I tried yesterday.
I tried 2nd order L-R on both LP and HP at 220-260Hz (with same setting for both LP and HP) like you suggested, but it sounds too thin sounding, - I tried increasing the LP volume level too but that did not help really. However I did also try Bessel 2nd order LP and HP at similar crossover points (maybe up to 20Hz apart between HP and LP) and that does work better, - but it still does not sound as full as the Butterworth ones with the new lower crossover points (I think anyway, - I'll obviously do a lot of retests with the Behringer), - so I'll probably end up with Butterworth. I must admit this is becoming fun playing around. I was a bit dismayed before due to the lack of mids I had (which was why I was thinking of buying the stock crossover) but with the new recommend lower crossover points the mids are a lot better and the sound is more coherent too. Not tried the part active/PLLXO approach yet though, - might not be as coherent as the Behrginer alone, but I guess the ultimate aim of all PLLXO will be as coherent. I can see too now why its good idea to get the Behringer upgraded, - as you can do these useful tesst without hiss or the porr mid/treble sound quality!

I was talking to a guy who sold that pair of used 3.3R crossover boxes on Ebay, - he looked inside before he sold them and reckons they had one popropylene cap, one electrolytic and the inductors all iron core (though he can't remembr exacelty). I told him the schematic and he questioned the 8.5mH inductor value saying that would be so big in an iron core it would no way fit in the boxes.
Anyway I realised I could actually build something very similar myself very cheaply and avoid the high $450 Magnepan cost, to use as a reference for my active tuning. Might well do that. It would really help though if I find another 3.3R owner that would be willing to open up one of their crososver boxes and tell me the values for certain and maybe do a photo. Shame there are not many 3.3R owners around. Anyway this guy that sold the 3.3R boxes figured it would be better selling them used even though they only sold for $88 as the parts were worth less on their own!

Will look up now what the LSP CAD thing you mentioned was. Thanks for all the info too on the phase stuff - I am still a bit lost but its becoming clearer more slowly and I have all your posts to usefully look back on as reference so many thanks again! Will keep in mind that differences in toe in can help crossover phase issues too.

Onto turntables/cartridge etc - I have four sets of MC step ups actually!, - Two of them are my main ones, - the very heavy and sought after "Head" tx4 step up I just bought which has accessible secondary ratios of 1:10, 1:15 and 1:20. So that's a good for a wide range of cartridges. I like my Linn troika on the 1:10 setting actually though in theory the 1:20 is better suited for its 0.2mV output, - the 1:10 has higher loading at 470 ohms when put into the MM stage, - and it gives more treble than the 1:20 setting (117 ohms loading) with the Troika.

I also have a very good Audio Innovations T2 step up transformers whose transformers are ultra high quality too. A guy who used to work for them (who now owns his own company, - Puresound) told me they are very good. The switchable step up ratios are quite high, - 1:22.5 and 1:45!. So I use the 1:22.5 most of the time but you can use the higher one if you have a very low output cart which can be loaded low, - the 40 ohms internal impedance of the Denon 304 is too high impedance for the higher ratio setting though (the loading on 1:45 ratio works out at 22 ohms into a 47K MM stage), - you need to use it on the other 1:22.5 setting with the DL304 (otherwise it doesn't sound right), however my Linn Troika works fine on the higher gain setting (Troika has 3 ohms impedance). Then you very high gain (about 9mv going into a MM stage using the Troika (Troika has 0.2 mV output!), - and you get really stunning dynamics!, and no noise despite the high gain as its a passive step up.

Active Headamps can be very good, - usually a bit more top end/wider bandwidth than passive step ups and a more open sound too but if you get a good bandwidth step up transformer than matches a cartridge well (which is crucial of course) it can sound very good and you get the benefit of much better dynamics, and a more solid bass. One comment I read on active MC headamps vs MC step up in a magazine always sticks in my mind. Can't remember the reviewer but he said the passive step ups do much better, and more realistic bass, - with active step ups it sounds wrong, - sort of like the drummers are drunk! He did say the Naim Audio MC phono stages were the best he had heard in the bass department though for active devices. But he said the other aspect of the sound (mid and treble) can be improved upon over the Naim phono stages with a good passive step up and good tube MM stage.

I find that how noisy a MC active headamp is does depend on the noise level of your actual MM stage as well, - some MM stages are a lot noisier than others. A common problem can be too much hiss with an active headamp in my experience. No hiss of course with a passive step up but sometime you have to site it well as otherwise it can pick up hum from other transformers.

I also have some Sowter 9580 step ups with ratio of 1:12.5 and a old Japanese coral step up with 1:20. They are both pretty good sounding as well, but not quite as good soudning as the other more expensive ones.
I've not tired the Denon DL304 with the TX4 yet, - look forward to that. But the 304 works great on the Audio Innovations T2 on the 1:22.5 "lower" gain setting (which is still quite high gain!). Of course for all of these you can use parallel resistors in between step up and MM stage to lower the loading if you wish. I also tired a zobel a few times before after it was recommened to me (cap and resistor), that can work very well too and you retain the output better than using a resistor alone.

The DL304 sounds very different from the DL103 like I say, - In my opinion the DL103 good points are it sounds very full, has a nice tone, very full and expressive midrange and is very musical. But the bad points are its a bit bloated and slow sounding, and has very little top end of course. The problem with the 103 is these flaws can be quite hard to live with, - especially the lack of top end. Using a slightly positive VTA can help a little bit though.

The DL304s good points are that its also highly musical and never harsh sounding, - but unlike the 103 its also highly transparent, very fast sounding with superb transients, and has lovely fine detail in a very refined way. It has really good microdynamics too, - much better than other cartridges I have tried. I find one of its best points though is the really good treble extension, - its very hard to listen to other cartridges afterwards as they don't have that extension. But its a magical treble extension in a musical way, - not the clinical rubbish other cartridges can have.
The 304 on the downside can sound a little lean in some systems, - but you have to match it with your system and possibly adjust slightly to the different presentation. And also use a flat or slightly negative VTA. The key with the DL304 is that its such a musical cartridge as well and never coarse or harsh sounding like the OC9. I seriously took the OC9 off my Ittok on the very first night I tried it out and put it up for sale the next day, and I immediately put the 304 back, - after the sandpaper sound of the OC9 putting the magical sounding 304 back was SUCH a big relief!

Apparently the even pricier Denon DL-S1 is very similar to the Dl-304 but has better bass and a fuller sound, so it could be a real killer. It used to be reasonable money from Japan (and I nearly got one to try out, - wish I had) but the prices went up of course. Its a bit too pricey now. The thing with the 304 is that for some odd reason in the UK it was the same price for about 22 years from 1986 to 2008!, - only about £170!!, - whilst at most of the same time it was $699 retail in the USA! I don't know how Denon were able to sell it so cheap for so long here. At the time the prices of all other cartridges went up regularly of course, leaving the 304 to be a huge bargain at that price. The price of the 304 went up here a year of two ago here though, - the cheapest now is about £300 but its still a bargain in my opinion. I just put up a wanted ad for a used one, - will see what comes my way but it might be better to buy another new one, - will see. So yeah as soon as I got another and try it out with my Technics I will send it off to you to try, and I'll send you some of the step ups to try too, - they are the best option really for a valve MM stage. Though your headamp looks like no slouch, but it will be good for you to compare with the Step ups. Will be very interested to see how you get on, - just borrow the stuff for a long as you like.

I could send you my Linn Troika to try too, - it has a fuller sound than the DL304 and is still pretty musical. But it does not quite have the top end extension of the DL304 which i really like. My Troika is retipped with a paratrace tip by the Expert stylus company, - it does actually have a lot more extension than the stock Troika did (that has an elliptical tip). I would say that the Troika has a balance sort of in between the Denon 304 and 103, - fulllish sounding like the 103 but it has more extension than the 103 in the treble, but like I say its not quite as transparent or as extended an the 304. Its a pretty good compromise though. I think its a little more dynamic sounding than the Denons too, - I will try the Troika and the Denon (when i get it) on the Technics, - on my 80s LP12 any cartridge lacks dynamics really, - I look forward to getting into the world of more dynamic sounding turntables. I might get a 1210/1200 as well, - there are so many around, - sometimes I've seen them sell for very good deals.

The Garrot sounds very nice, - I can see that's quite a pricey cartridge and it does look like an A&R P77 cartridge. So in that regard it looks like its indeed pretty similar to the Cartridge mans music maker cartridges, - when they start with a cartridge body and fine tune it carefully by hand changing parts etc. Got to try one of these pricier MMs one day, - its been a long time since I heard an MM. A friend told me the more expensive clearaudio cartridges are very good, - there is one with a wood body at about £600 he preferred to anything else(can remember the name), - he compared it to some much more expensive MCs and preferred it.
Not tried any Lyras myself, but I have a friend who has a very expensive Lyra Skala on his Michel Orbe (with SME V arm), - pricey kit. I brought my LP12 over with the Ittok and Denon Dl304 on it once to compare. The Orbe/SME/Skala had a much bigger and more dynamic sound. The LP12 was smaller scale but it was definitely more musical in my opinion, - and I actually preferred the top end of the DL304 to the Skala, - both have a lot of top end, but in my opinion the DL304 has the edge and does it in a very musical and refined way, - crazy I know to be comparing a cartridge that cost £2000 to one that cost £170, but there we are!

Anyway PHEW! sorry again about the long message, - was babbling on again off topic! Hope I didn't send you to sleep too quickly!!!
Cheers,
Colin

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