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Stereo Subs

73.231.17.199
Posted on May 25, 2025 at 09:50:56
Sibelius
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 Hey folks,

I had hoped to upgrade my speakers, but my daughter decided to choose a college that costs us a fortune in out of state tuition with ZERO financial aid, so...

I like my current speakers, but I want a bigger, fuller sound. Some have suggested I try a sub(s). While it wouldn't be my first choice I might be able to swing it past my financial advisor (read wife). My question is, since I have a very small niche in the living room and my speakers will only be about 10' apart, and at best 10' from me, would I get the benefit of stereo subs in that scenario? They would have to be small, such as the KEF KC 162. I'd prefer a wood finished sub, anyone know of one? I see ATC makes one, but it's $3,000 and I don't know if the financial advisor would go for that (maybe one, but not two for stereo). I may as well get the new speakers. When I bought my baby Avalons my dealer said they had the resolution of the bigger ones, but not the bass. I certainly won't be crazy about the looks and the cables, but sacrifice I must!

 

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RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 25, 2025 at 10:39:30
Leo loves music
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 Same here. My son went to a private school (maybe a decade ago?). A lot of people hided their money. I am a honest person. I reported everything of course ZERO financial aid. Not even a loan.

I had bad luck with subwoofers. Never liked them. But in some case we have no choice.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 25, 2025 at 10:52:22
Sibelius
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 She turned down the private school that offered $100,000, not the right "vibe". And I've got another one next year (with better creds and hopefully more aid offers).

Yeah, if I try a sub (or two) it would be with a no questions asked return policy. I'm not a bass freak, and listen to classical and opera almost exclusively, I'm just after a fuller sound.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 25, 2025 at 12:28:59
GEO
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 Both of mine are out of college. My philosophy has always been that I would rather have money and not qualify for financial aid than qualify for financial aid because we don't have much money.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 25, 2025 at 12:31:35
GEO
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 I am sure she will be fine. Enjoy the ride.

 

Good Philosophy! and Thanks, We'll All Be Fine (nt), posted on May 25, 2025 at 13:10:25
Sibelius
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 No text text.

 

No questions return policy, posted on May 25, 2025 at 15:35:28
Kal Rubinson
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 Here's the rub. The problem is rarely about the subs themselves. Rather, it almost always an issue of their integration with the other speakers and the room.

Selecting subs comes first but you cannot really determine if they are to be adopted or returned until you have figured out how you are going to manage the bass and position/EQ the subs. I do not know your system but you need to look into setup options before actually purchasing the subs.

 

RE: No questions return policy, posted on May 25, 2025 at 15:57:27
Sibelius
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 Hey Kal,

I know nothing about integration, but my placement options are severely limited in my Silly Valley cracker box's living room. It will mostly be a matter of plunking them down where I can, plugging them in and determining whether they are workable and offer improvements that make them worth fiddling around with.

I was able to find a dealer relatively local (and previously unknown to me) who carries the REL, Acoustic Energy, JL Audio and B&W (forever!) models I'm interested in, so that is probably where I'll start, at least to get an idea whether I hear a difference with my music (though not necessarily with my own speakers, but in general). It's really not my first choice, but it might be my only choice for awhile.

ETA: The manual for the JL Audio Dominion offers extensive (to my mind) setup advice!

 

RE: No questions return policy, posted on May 25, 2025 at 16:13:17
Leo loves music
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 Since most subwoofers utilize a Class D amplifier, which introduces a noticeable sound delay, positioning the subwoofer closer to the listening position than your main speakers is crucial for optimal audio alignment.

 

RE: No questions return policy, posted on May 25, 2025 at 16:29:05
Sibelius
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 Well, if that's correct, then that narrows my search way down since it's not possible to locate them close to my spot, unless I go wireless (not sure I want to do that). We shall see.

 

Make a plan., posted on May 25, 2025 at 16:49:47
Kal Rubinson
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 One needs to:
1. Divert bass from the mains to the subs and balance their levels.
2. Compensate for any difference in propagation time between mains and subs.
3. Implement low frequency correction to account for the effects of room acoustics specific to the subs' position in the room. This is particularly important if you are constrained in where you can place the subs.

Ideally, all this is accomplished with DSP.

Unless you can do this, it's a crap shoot.

 

RE: No questions return policy, posted on May 25, 2025 at 18:00:11
Rod M
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 Kal's advice is excellent.

How will you integrate the subs? There are two ways: 1) If you use a preamp, you can use a second output to the subs (my preference) or 2) Use speaker wire to route to the subs and then from the sub to the speaker.

With RCA outputs, you'd run your speakers fully and then set the subs to a crossover to blend with the speakers. The speaker wire method would change the low end crossover from the speaker to blend with the sub. Personally, I prefer the preamp method and just set the subs at 80hz or slightly lower.

My main speakers fall like a rock at 80hz, so I prefer to set up the subs next to the mains to blend seamlessly which also simplifies the timing issues.

Room issues are another problem. My subs have their own DSP with a microphone and it works great, just set the subs at 80hz, run the DSP and then tweak the volume level of the subs to blend to the speakers.

For deep bass, I prefer 12" or 15" subs. Smaller subs can do a surprisingly performance, but bigger is better in my opinion. Take a look at this Subwoofer buying guide.

As to questions about Class D amps, I can't find anything that would indicate that integration is difference than any other.

-Rod

 

RE: No questions return policy, posted on May 25, 2025 at 18:24:02
Leo loves music
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 A class D subwoofer usually adds 6-10ms latency (group delay). You can convert this into distance which needs to be compensated.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 25, 2025 at 20:45:33
hahax@verizon.net
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 If the question is do you need stereo, meaning two subs, the answer is one or three(or four). But multiple subs are to position subs to handle room interactions since the best position(s) for sub are rarely the best position for the main speakers for imaging and dimensionality. But as far as deep bass stereo goes, there is none. Bass is omnidirectional. In fact if you stand next to a real sub playing deep base you'll think the subs aren't working. The stereo imaging for bass comes from bass harmonics which come from the main speakers.

 

Thanks Kal and Rod, posted on May 25, 2025 at 21:52:17
Sibelius
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 This is some complicated $#!*. High level, line level, ported, sealed, room modes...sounds like it's all a crap shoot until you get the subs and start mucking around with them. I guess that's why I didn't want to go this route. I have dedicated sub outs on my LTA integrated, but REL says speaker level (high level) is the way to go. Others say nope, line level is it. Would be so much easier to just get the new speakers, and those Quads, and Pure Audio Trios are calling, both much different than my Avalons. The other speakers I'd narrowed it down to are ATC's, actives or passives. The reviews sound like they's be up my alley. Subs could travel with me though, once tuition is not an issue.

I've got lots to study and hopefully I can get to some dealers to listen, but I don't know how much you can learn without them in your room and connected to your system, more so than any other component. And I did see some comments on class D amps with some issues, whether they're audible to me, probably not. Class D all the way for ease of lifting and moving, which would probably be more important.

I've got a list. Some are available to listen to nearby, some would be ordered, shipped, returned. I think the REL Tx series, the B&W ASW, SVS Micro and JL Audio lead the list. Can't spend a fortune either so don't know what quality is available for say $3,000 a pair max. Is it better to get one at that price, or a pair for $1500 each. I've given up mostly on the wood finished since matching would be impossible, so piano black it is.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 25, 2025 at 23:12:30
Sibelius
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 Well, all I know is that there are several recommendations for "stereo" subs. All I can do is give it a try. Maybe one will give me the boost I'm after. If one is all I need more's the better financially. What I've read is that a pair can turn your "mains" into full range speakers. But, I won't know until I take the plunge!

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 26, 2025 at 04:59:01
G Squared
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 Congratulations on getting your daughter's education off to a great start.

I run one Rythmic 15 in sealed sub. It is low passed at 50 Hz and the input to the amp for my mains is high passed at 50Hz. Integration is seamless.
Gsquared

 

RE: Good Philosophy! and Thanks, We'll All Be Fine (nt), posted on May 26, 2025 at 06:08:48
GEO
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 Yep. Most people here have great lives. Enjoy your children's experience. I miss it.

 

That's exactly, posted on May 26, 2025 at 06:11:25
E-Stat
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 unless I go wireless (not sure I want to do that).

what I do for the best measured results. :)

Emotiva "virtual copper" boxes eliminates lengthy cable runs and allows you to place them optimally. Such works fine for two octave range.

In my case, they are placed at room diagonals - front left and right rear.

 

Re: LTA Integrated, posted on May 26, 2025 at 06:49:37
Kal Rubinson
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 The stereo subwoofer outputs are good to have but, without a user manual, it is impossible to know what they convey and what options are offered.

As for REL's recommendation of using the speaker level outputs, they are unique in this and I have no experience with it. It will certainly constrain your options to EQ the subs which are, inevitably, at line level.

Subwoofers with built-in EQ would be advantageous for your setup but they are, inevitably, more expensive. Compare JL Audio's E subs with their F subs, for example, and you might consider starting with just one.

 

RE: Thanks Kal and Rod, posted on May 26, 2025 at 07:35:56
GEO
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 At the very least get a Sound Pressure Level Meter and find that old Stereo test CD which offers low frequency tone tracks. I used it to set my crossover point and output on my Rel sub. I used it with PHY-HPs that run full range.

 

RE: Thanks Kal and Rod, posted on May 26, 2025 at 09:46:26
Jack G
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 Pick choices that will be easier for you. You can use one sub, but it is harder to integrate. Much will depend on your room. You can get fairly simple subs, you may not need all the bells and whistles, but get one that goes fairly deep. I agree with Rod, line level is better IMO. This lets you get some bass from your mains (probably not much), this seems to help a little with integration. A sub with phase control will make life easier for you, most have that now. Your amp probably won't like driving a passive sub, so get a powered one. This brings up a separate issue- Keep in mind your outlet situation. Also, will this be for music or both music/video? Ported seems best for video. There's more BOOM! and chest thumps. Great for stomping Dinosaurs etc. Sealed tends to be faster and tighter but may not be as deep. That is my preference for music. Others may disagree.
Good luck with your quest.
Jack

 

Re: LTA Integrated, posted on May 26, 2025 at 10:17:49
Sibelius
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 The F series looks pretty impressive, but I would only be able to get one.

Confusing that JL Audio is now "Garmin". Kind of an odd combination of products. I noticed they also own Tacx indoor cycling apparatuses. I always wanted to try rollers!

 

RE: Thanks Kal and Rod, posted on May 26, 2025 at 10:23:50
Sibelius
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 Hey Jack,

Always appreciate your thoughtful comments. Easier for me is what I'm all about these days, especially with one new knee and another to follow in July.

Everyone seems to recommend sealed for music, no need here for anything to do with HT. And line level would be easier, and more straightforward. REL (and Paul Mcgowan of PS Audio) seems to be the only ones that insist speaker level is the best. They've been at this a long time so I guess they know what they are doing.

 

Technical Questions re: Grounding and Connection, posted on May 26, 2025 at 10:32:14
Sibelius
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 REL provides a cable that includes a grounding wire. I have no ground screw on my amp, and their other suggestion is to use a chassis screw which on my amp are not prominent enough to use. Is a ground essential? I don't see any other manufacturer suggesting it, just regular IC's or speaker cables for the "high level" connection. Waiting to hear back from REL and LTA about other options.

Also, I've seen something about connecting the sub directly to the main speakers. Is that something that can be done? I don't have "bi wire" capable connections on my speakers, so I would have to use two cables to each terminal for the stereo subs. Always afraid I'm going to blow something up!

Sure would be easier to just get the Quads or the ATC SCM40A's!

ETA: Probably a dumb question, but If wireless turns out to be an option, for stereo subs I assume I would need 2 transmitters and receivers correct?

 

RE: Technical Questions re: Grounding and Connection, posted on May 26, 2025 at 11:28:17
E-Stat
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 for stereo subs I assume I would need 2 transmitters and receivers correct?

In my case, no. The HT processor has a single LFE output so I use one transmitter and two receivers. Which brings to mind another consideration. That room has a nasty mode centered around 80 hz which was attenuated with the processor's parametric EQ on that channel.

Not something I either have nor need in the main music system upstairs.

 

RE: Technical Questions re: Grounding and Connection, posted on May 26, 2025 at 11:31:26
Sibelius
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 REL has their Arrow Wireless system. A little pricier than yours. I have to say, their manuals leave a lot to be desired. JL Audio wins hands down on that score.

 

Just be open, posted on May 26, 2025 at 11:38:16
E-Stat
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 to other sub positions than directly below or near mains.

I did that at first in original room but later I found that placing them behind me worked just as well. I'm convinced that distributed coverage is beneficial.

 

See if this link of Dr. Hsu of Hsu Research subs helps you . . ., posted on May 26, 2025 at 12:08:05
alaskahiatt
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RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 26, 2025 at 12:30:11
Leo loves music
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I think I have a HSU VTF-3 MK2. I don't like it and do not use it. It always produces a loud thick bass behind my main speakers. I would rather listen to music w/o it.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 26, 2025 at 12:42:05
Sibelius
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 Thickness is definitely something I can't stand. What bass my Avalons do put out is light and quick which is my style with the music I listen to. I only wish now that I'd had the money to get the BIGGER Avalons, like the Eidolon. That one was always my dream. They rarely appear on the used market. There's one in the Trader, but it's located in Europe. No dice on that.

 

RE: See if this link of Dr. Hsu of Hsu Research subs helps you . . ., posted on May 26, 2025 at 12:43:51
Sibelius
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 Great interview. I do have one of his on my list. Sealed is what most recommend for music so I was wondering about the ports on his. I think somewhere he describes the sub as sealed, but it had the ports.

 

No confusion. Garmin purchased JL Audio. (NT), posted on May 26, 2025 at 14:32:34
Kal Rubinson
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And the majority of others do not?, posted on May 26, 2025 at 14:36:41
Kal Rubinson
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 Many of us find that arrangement too constraining in modern times.

 

I think the article mentioned the option of sealing both ports for better definition., posted on May 26, 2025 at 15:02:14
alaskahiatt
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 Plugging the two ports would also result in some loss of bass extension and volume.

I have the old passive sonotube Hsu stereo subwoofers that require his separate crossover and providing your own amplifier. I use an older NAD 2600A amplifier for that purpose. The bass extension is a wall shaking, and full sound in the room is evident. My HRSW10 Hsu stereo subs are down firing, and my theory from experience is that forward firing would probably provide better definition. That can also be influenced by the type of floor. I found that my down firing Velodyne ULD15 sub had less bass clarity than my Hsu down firing subs, and my guess is that the bigger Velodyne driver caused the wood floor vibrations to interfere with the driver vibrations.

I use line level connections, but that is necessary when using the outboard Hsu crossover.

I used a Radio Shack decibel meter to find the nodes that provided the most bass, and there were many peaks and valleys in the 24 foot long room. I sat about 12 feet away in one of the peak areas. My subs were not in symmetrical positions, but that still didn't provide a smoother response. A larger difference in location might have helped, but available positions were very limited by other family desires.

I ended up using a crossover frequency of 80Hz for my monitors, and the Hsu crossover provided both high and low pass. Sub sound location was not detected, and they blended nicely with the old cheapo PSB Alphas.

Good luck.








 

Did changing the volume help? I use a low volume just enough to provide, posted on May 26, 2025 at 15:12:19
alaskahiatt
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 more foundation. I have the 1990s original Hsu passive sonotube subs.

 

RE: And the majority of others do not?, posted on May 26, 2025 at 15:15:45
Sibelius
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 When I wrote that it was regarding their own designs. In my brief tour of several other companies manuals I don't think I saw anything other than, here's how you CAN connect, we provide these options and more or less, "use your ears to decide". REL is passionate about it and provides the cables so you'll take them up on their advice. I did run across some AV installer guy who declared the opposite, speaker is the worst and no decent sub mfgr. encourages it, as I'm looking at REL and their multi kilo buck offerings saying just that.

 

RE: Did changing the volume help? I use a low volume just enough to provide, posted on May 26, 2025 at 15:30:46
Leo loves music
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 My Sonus Faber stand-mount speakers and ProAc Response Two don't integrate well with the HSU; there's a noticeable lack of upper bass, and the HSU lags behind the main speakers.

 

RE: And the majority of others do not?, posted on May 26, 2025 at 16:14:15
Kal Rubinson
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 If that empowers you to got that route, I wish you success. I have no hand's on experience with them, so I will not argue this any further.

 

Do You Have Any Experience with Wireless?, posted on May 26, 2025 at 16:35:43
Sibelius
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 That would be the only way I would be able to have alternative locations in the current room for best possible sound integration.

 

Sorry, I do not. (NT), posted on May 26, 2025 at 16:47:31
Kal Rubinson
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Thanks For Your Input on This (nt), posted on May 26, 2025 at 16:51:15
Sibelius
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 no text text

 

Just the Disparate Product Lines is Intriguing, posted on May 26, 2025 at 16:53:29
Sibelius
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 I only knew Garmin as GPS and bike computers. Profits is profits though. Knowing what the discussions entailed for that purchase would be interesting.

 

Ah, okay, and too bad. nt, posted on May 26, 2025 at 17:20:49
alaskahiatt
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Go with 2, posted on May 26, 2025 at 17:21:31
Ozzie
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 Stereo subs are better than one. Anyone that has delved into low frequency reinforcement, and has done so will not go back to one. Stay away from ported subs. Also, the ability to tweak them on your phone is a must. I bought a set of SVS SB-3000 subs for 1600 a year ago. No regrets. Lastly, if your kid was offered 100K from a school to go there, tell her to put her selfish beliefs and feelings aside and go.

 

RE: Go with 2, posted on May 26, 2025 at 17:47:18
Sibelius
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 I was outvoted, 2-1. It still would have cost a fortune, just a bit less of a fortune than her chosen school. The next one is a little more flexible and has fewer must haves.

That SVS is on my list, along with the little brothers. That one is $2300/pr now. 50+ lbs though, a little on the heavy side for me to move around. I've got one year left with my gym and rink rat daughter who could handle it for me.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 26, 2025 at 20:50:18
hahax@verizon.net
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 If one goes low enough and loud enough two subs are a waste. There is NO stereo down low even if it is on the source where it sometimes isn't. Three or four subs make sense because you can set them up to negate room problems in the deep bass which are considerable.

 

RE: I think the article mentioned the option of sealing both ports for better definition., posted on May 26, 2025 at 20:55:03
hahax@verizon.net
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 Plugging ports will of course lose bass. Ported speakers aren't really designed to have the ports stuffed. Bass comes out of the ports and it will be lost. But if a sub is designed properly as a sealed box it will have significantly superior definition because there will be much less overhang after a tone on the source stops.

 

I certainly agree on the bass control by a sealed box. nt, posted on May 28, 2025 at 08:26:21
alaskahiatt
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Using a pair of SVS SB-3000s with my Magnepans, and..., posted on May 28, 2025 at 15:24:49
MWE
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 I highly recommend them. The phone app for settings is marvelous. Makes adjusting the various parameters a breeze.

Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 30, 2025 at 03:30:44
M-dB
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 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650152717-avalon-acoustics-eidolon-speakers-maple-finish-4w-crates/

I have a few LP's that sound better through my Eidolons with the two crawl test positioned Velodyne Digital Drive 12 Plus turned off. Those same recordings in multiple digital formats sound better with the subs on.

The Eidolons are situated 7' apart with 3/8" toe in. Positioned in a quasi golden thirds relation. Their rear edge is 6.5' from the front wall. One small reflective diffuser on the side walls mitigate the first side wall reflection.
Subwoofers ride on decoupled thick foam padded dollies in asymmetrical sidewall positions.

Using a tv or a laptop the Plus Auto EQ is the only one I'm familiar with that simultaneously plays the Sweep Tones CD through the main speakers and the subs as it preforms the subwoofers calibration with the room as well as the main speakers.

The twenty minute Auto EQ gets close enough that most reviewers simply let it go at that. Five to ten minutes of using Velodyne's Frequency Response and Parameters Screen which allows a drag and drop of up to five of the fourteen parameters at a time to your personal preference. Then saved to six memory presets. In all the process is quite quick and simple to use as you watch the graph and listen to the adjustments being made.

 

You just described..., posted on May 30, 2025 at 06:22:33
Ozzie
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 the negatives of ported subs. Diffuse, smeared bass. But they go deeper and play louder.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on May 30, 2025 at 08:26:30
M-dB
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 Interesting sale pricing.

 

RE: You just described..., posted on May 30, 2025 at 11:27:55
Inmate51
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Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
 I often read/hear that sentiment. I do understand that there is a time issue with ported bass drivers. That's the nature of stored-dumped acoustic energy. But I have yet to see any time measurement or blind subjective listening test which actually confirms that it's audible.

The wavelengths and time lengths at those frequencies are quite long. For example, 40 Hz is about 28 milliseconds long for one wavelength. Our hearing integrates sound over a longer time period at those frequencies. In fact, it takes more than one wave to even identify the sound as a "tone".

I could be wrong (I haven't studied psychoacoustics - or needed it - in a long time), but I think that what a person may be hearing as "smear" is at higher frequencies which the woofer is reproducing/producing, not at the lower frequencies where the port is in play, where we don't hear that kind of detail.

Please show me your more up-to-date information. (No anecdotal "evidence" allowed! This is science!) :)


*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

A ported unit rolls off much more quickly below resonance, so it could be argued..., posted on May 31, 2025 at 06:48:46
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2452
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 ...that, for similarly-sized units, a sealed design goes deeper, due to its much more gradual rolloff, though the ported design might have a lower low-frequency cutoff. It kind of depends on how "going deeper" is defined in this context.

Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Listening tests are prople buying ported.., posted on June 2, 2025 at 19:09:00
Ozzie
Audiophile

Posts: 4009
Joined: August 1, 2002
 only to dump them later on after they stuffed sox and what have you into the ports. They then buy sealed.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on June 8, 2025 at 11:43:00
Billy Wonka
Audiophile

Posts: 4027
Joined: April 25, 2013
Contributor
  Since: October 15, 2013
 The first job of a rich person is to look poor. Why? Everybody wants something from you. But the call to wealth demands that others know of your success. Human nature is a philosophical fist fight from the git-go.

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on June 18, 2025 at 21:00:44
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 6002
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 I used to advocate for "stereo subs underneath your favorite standmounts" crossed over practically as high as you like!

One problem. Those are functionally not subs but woofers at that point.

People using 80-90Hz crossovers with 12 or 18db slopes have determined that mono subs can be localized.

I am running an equalized sealed-box Peerless/Scan-Speak metal cone 12" at about 45Hz / 24db/octave and on occasion have to walk up to the thing to see if it's on.

It completely vanishes and just adds in that bottom octave when the material being played has information down there. When there is no sub-bass, it adds nothing and just sits there.

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: Stereo Subs, posted on June 19, 2025 at 09:31:44
Inmate51
Industry Professional

Posts: 3495
Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
 Good observations.

One thing I would suggest...

Have two "subs", crossed at more like 100 Hz or so, and bi-amp. You will thank me. Between taking the low end load off the mains and the mains amp, it will make a very noticeable difference.

:)

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

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