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In Reply to: RE: Mofi settlement posted by Analog Scott on June 26, 2023 at 06:07:24
In those terms I'm more of a pacifist, live and let live person. I have no reason to rile folks up when clearly they are dying off like dinosaurs all on their own. Erasure and/or internment camps don't work for me but boycotting those empowering them while profiting off exploitation of them would be a priority with me. Which so far is not a priority of mine. I haven't bought from Acoustic Sounds in years because of poor service and packaging BTW. I boycotted a Taco Bell once for over a year because they shorted me a taco one day and on the next day I mentioned it and they said I needed the receipt and the bag from yesterday if I wanted the taco I paid for - not that I really cared about the taco it just pissed me off they asked me for the "bag". Like I'm some criminal trying to steal a taco.
I am definitely not a pacifist in defense of facts and objective information. Which puts me in an inherently hostile environment as an audiophile.
The high end audio world has always been rife with misinformation, urban legend and just plain antiscientific beliefs. But now it is the dominant force in high end audio. As much as I like the idea of "live and let live" I think there is no room for it on public forums where so much of what audiophiles believe about audio is disseminated. There are two reasons for this.
1. Perception is taken for reality. Tell a lie often enough and if unopposed it will eventually be accepted as the truth. If the only voices that are represented in audio are the voices of misinformation, urban legend and just plain anti-scientific bullshit for lack of a better word then that becomes the "reality" that is taken at face value by the general audiophile community. I do think most audiophiles, at least when they are starting out, would actually like to know the facts and make truly informed buying decisions. That is not even possible if we allow facts and reason to be shouted down by these true believers. This is exactly why I made the creationist analogy. I have no problem with creationists believing in creationism. That's on them. I do have a big problem with government representatives trying to legislate it into schools to be taught as legitimate science.
2. This influence and imbalance of beliefs among audiophiles DOES affect manufacturer's choices in ways that make for inferior product. And in this regard I am being quite selfish in my public ridicule of the AAA cult. They have a very loud voice and they have the attention of the labels who make audiophile vinyl. When you have idiots like Michael Fremer who declares he can always hear digital in a vinyl record when there is a digital step and you have PT Barnums like Chad who managed to angle certain business advantages as two of the loudest and most respected voices in high end vinyl perpetuating the myth that AAA mastering is actually better you end up with companies like Mofi who fucking get sued for quite literally doing the best they can to make the best LPs they can because it bruised the egos of the AAA cultists who drank the Fremer/Kassam et al Kool aide. (so so sorry for the run on sentence there) And this makes it a problem for other companies to make the otherwise obvious superior choice of doing digital transfers to make their LPs.
So yeah, I am selfishly going to publicly fight this nonsense tooth and nail for pretty selfish reasons. I want better sounding records. Religious beliefs about sound quality that clearly are factually incorrect are an obstacle to that goal.
I fight the fight because I truly believe that if it isn't fought then the bullshit rules the industry and everything ultimately suffers for it.
It's already uneven enough that such bullshit as $40K power cords, cable lifters, esoteric DACs and a multitude of other nonsensical garbage is largely held as true because of the wide acceptance of it's truth. IMO we are already in a deep hole.
So I am not a pacifist in the struggle between fact and reason against religion and irrationality.
And to quote Rocco DeLuca "The truth is not polite."
"When you have idiots like Michael Fremer who declares he can always hear digital in a vinyl record when there is a digital step"
I can unfaillingly hear this step! My latest purchase is the Kevin Grey reissue of the Cars debut album which claims to be directly produced from the original master tape (HA!). Not only does it have a clear digital degration (step), my original analog pressing of this album completely cleans its clock!
I am done with purchasing these modern digital counterfits!
So how does "clear digital degration (step)" sound compared to 40 something years of storage and usage on the master tape? And FWIW a DSD transfer from the original master tape will result in a record produced directly from the original master tape.
"So how does "clear digital degration (step)" sound compared to 40 something years of storage and usage on the master tape?"
The tape itself shows no audible signs of degration. The defects I hear are clearly digital in nature.
Did you do a direct comparison between the original master tape and the alleged digital transfer?
"Did you do a direct comparison between the original master tape and the alleged digital transfer?"
As I have exhaustive experience with analog tape, I am infinitely familiar with its sonic properties and capabilities.
I have no need to investigate further.
and you are faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and can leap tall buildings in a single bound?
You have to be putting us on. This is just toooooo much of a cartoon caricature of an audiophile
I consider myself to be among the worlds most critical audio enthusiasts. I am not an Idiophool!
You may or may not be joking. either way you sure are good for laughs. Thank you for that.
I think he was joking
I gave up sarcasm on-line years ago. It just doesn't work - half the people who love you actually are those you are laughing at, and half the people who hate you are the people you love. I guess the results are better than any moderate could hope to achieve.
I've always been impressed with folks who are capable of hearing the space/gaps in-between the digital samples.
Humor often doesn't translate well. I thought he was joking. Now I'm not so sure
"Humor often doesn't translate well. I thought he was joking. Now I'm not so sure"
No anti-analog scott, I am not.
OK you are not joking. Ironically though you providing yet another example of the very thing that permeates high end audio. Beliefs in audio mythology over facts and science.
The Cars LP you speak of that you believe you can hear a digital step in the mastering chain is by all accounts an all analog mastering. Is it *possible* that Kevin Gray and everyone at Rhino involved in the making of this LP are collectively lying? It's *possible* but given the environment of multiple class action lawsuits against companies for failing to disclose a digital step in their transfer/ mastering chain it would seem like a needless risk to take by a company whose parent company literally owns that master tape to make unambiguous claims that the record was an all analog mastering. From the Rhino website:
"Cut From The Original Analog Master Tapes By Kevin Gray
Pressed On 180-Gram Heavyweight Vinyl At Optimal
Heavyweight Glossy Gatefold Jacket
Features A New Interview With Elliot Easton And Producer Roy Thomas Baker's Tracking Notes For "Good Times Roll"
Limited & Numbered To 5,000
Available Now, Exclusively At Rhino.com
ABOUT RHINO HIGH FIDELITY
Rhino is synonymous with high-quality reissues, setting the standard with award-winning audio releases for the past 45 years. Now we're raising the bar with a new premium vinyl series, Rhino High Fidelity. These high-end, limited-edition vinyl reissues of classic albums represent the pinnacle of sound and packaging.
To ensure consistent sonic excellence, Kevin Gray will cut lacquers for all Rhino Hi-Fi releases, and Optimal will press the 180-gram vinyl records. The releases boast high-quality glossy covers and "tip-on" jackets, an old-school aesthetic that evokes the golden age of vinyl."
Given the fact that the total gross revenue from this record will be $800,000.00 and that Mofi had to pay no less than $370,000.00 to settle their lawsuit. (that does not include the costs of their own council) It would be profoundly stupid for them to lie about this.
So you hear a digital step in an all analog record. Just like so many AAA devotees including Michael Fremer failed to hear digital steps that were in the transfer/mastering chain of various LPs by Mofi and other labels. AND OTHER LABELS. (more to come and that one)
Sorry it's nonsense and is counter productive. Nobody can hear a proper hi res digital step. No one. It is not physically possible.
Goober, if you are reading this, does my fight seem so unreasonable now? This is NOT an isolated opinion. It is an example of the loudest collective voice in audiophile vinyl.
As a side note. I am certainly not "anti-analog." Understanding analog and the effect it has on audio does not make one "anti-analog" OTOH I am pro fact and pro science and pro rational thought. The choice of audio mythology and anecdotal evidence derived from non controlled casual listening over objective evidence and research from an entire field of science is the opposite of being pro fact, pro science and pro rational thought.
It is the single biggest problem in the high end audio industry. It's why we get records that are made avoiding digital and is inferior as a direct result. It's why we have a market for $40K power cords that do absolutely nothing to the audio signal. It is the reason audiophiles will buy a bag of magic rocks for $300.00. It's the reason why most of the audiophile community is wallowing in inferior sound anchored in and held back by antiquated technology while ignoring and even demonizing real innovations in audio.
" Goober, if you are reading this, does my fight seem so unreasonable now? "
Yes. Here's why -
" The choice of audio mythology and anecdotal evidence derived from non controlled casual listening over objective evidence and research from an entire field of science is the opposite of being pro fact, pro science and pro rational thought. "
Non controlled casual listening is exactly how I evaluate audio gear. Objective evidence and research from an entire field of science will never trump casual listening. Choosing audio equipment and building audio systems is an art not a science just like making an album is an art not a science.
Objective evidence and research only plays a part in this art. However one values the results varies from each system owner to the next.
"Non controlled casual listening is exactly how I evaluate audio gear. Objective evidence and research from an entire field of science will never trump casual listening."
That is a point of major disagreement. Which is fine. It's audio. But at the same time I have offered Michael Fremer and numerous other folks who think their hearing perceptions under such casual conditions trump science a $20K bet that under double blind conditions their "hearing" won't do what they think it can do. I have even gone so far as to make it my $20.K vs. My travel expenses to come to whoever thinks they can hear these differences. I'm talking in most cases better than 10-1 odds!
No one will take any of the bets. No one! If the shoe were on the other foot? I'd be all over those offers. ANYONE who wants to bet me $20K that I can't hear differences in anything audio that I firmly believe makes an audible difference will immediately be taken up on such an offer.
Honestly, what do you think an entire field of science is missing and getting wrong that casual audiophiles are routinely picking up on? Does that really seem feasible to you?
"Honestly, what do you think an entire field of science is missing and getting wrong that casual audiophiles are routinely picking up on? Does that really seem feasible to you?"
This question is getting old. Measurements cannot tell us how a component audibly performs beyond the most basic criterias.
Actually it's your anti scientific audio religion that is getting old. Wanna take my bet? I'll bet you whatever you want to risk that you can not reliably identify difference between the analog audio signal of your choice, using the source material of your choice on the stereo system of your choice from a real time hi res ADC/DAC step in the signal.
1. Level matched
2. Double blind ABX
3. A positive has to meet the basic scientific statistical criteria of 95% confidence level.
I look forward to your excuses not to take the bet
"Sorry it's nonsense and is counter productive. Nobody can hear a proper hi res digital step. No one. It is not physically possible."
As hearing acuity is direct tied to ones intellect, perhaps I the Great Genius am the only one that can reliably do so.
The Cars reissue sounds exactly like the very distinctive degrations of digital, with no true air and space around the instruments/performers, and a lack of fine resolution, texturing and inner detail!
You do know that Beethoven was stone deaf when he composed much of his greatest work right?
So how do you explain you hearing degrations of digital in a recording in which is aaa?
I'm a hobbyist not a warrior. I'm doing just fine records sound good to me. Spent lots of time picking the hardware that works for me and the enjoyment of recordings follows.
The geek and the collector in me encourages various versions of my favorite records. And naturally comparisons of the versions. Current MoFi, Speakers Corner and Analog Production products hold up pretty well. But so has lots of original labels reissues of older music as well the Pure Pleasure titles I've acquired - I'm sure there's more than a bit of digital in there. The vast majority of my music purchases are not audiophile records.
It's a big hobby with room for all types of "philosophies". It's 2 channel audio and there's only that much to work with. I'm expecting digital remixes to result in reissues of older music some of which will sound better than the original releases. And it should not cost more than what we are paying for a regular release or the $40 bucks we are paying for a standard MoFi or Analog Productions reissue.
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