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I have always wondered about this, especially since most retips are on cartridges where the cantilever has been pranged.
Does the retipper actually remove the old cantilever from the yoke? Or is there a sleeve installed over the stub, and the new cantilever set in it?
No one ever seems to address this. And the chances I have gotten to ask someone, well they tend to avoid the question entirely.
Anyone got a definitive answer?
Regards
Mister Pig
Follow Ups:
Well, I certainly can address this one!
I had my Ortofon Kontrapunkt A retipped by Sound Smith about 5 or six years ago- that included replacing the original with the ruby cantilever that they use.
The second retip (about three years ago) was just that- replaced ONLY the stylus.
Third time (I just it back last week) and I had them redo the cantilever and stylus. This time, there appears to be some sort of collar near the "innards". I'm sure they have a reason for it (did they have to cut the old ruby cantilever? was something amiss that they didn't tell me about?). Maybe Retipper (aka Peter Ledermann) might chime it...
Dman
Analog Junkie
All carts have a part called a joint pipe. It's actually a socket - like an end cap that terminates the cantilever.
If an entire cantilever is replaced it would normally go there.
If the diamond tip is the only part replaced then it is glued onto an exotic cantilever or press fit on an aluminum one.
neo
BIRD LIVES
Right, and as far as I can tell its located behind the coil former. and in front of the mandrel. But I am sure there are variations in architecture, but in the end the cantilever has to be attached somewhere.
The question is, what happens in a retip? is the old cantilever removed? Or is it trimmed up to a stub and a new cantilever grafted in place? If so, how is it done? I could only imagine a sleeve being used for something like that.
I just have never seen a definitive answer to what happens exactly during a retip.
Regards
Mister Pig
You seem confused about the terminology. A retip is when the diamond stylus ONLY is replaced, with the new stylus attached to the existing cantilever.
When the cantilever is bent or broken, then it's all replaced. As to where and how the new cantilever is attached, I can only offer common sense as I've never done the work.
Lederman's website says that the new cantilever is "installed," which implies that it's attached in exactly the same way the original was attached. I can't imagine that this would be done in any other way. What would be the point? Just open the cart up and replace the cantilever.
There is a common understanding when the term "retipping" is used. There appears to have been enough information in the post for you to understand the question being asked, otherwise you would not have replied. Specifically with a sentence of mine references "especially since most retips are on cartridges where the cantilever has been pranged."Now playing the grammar police adds no value to the thread, nor does it make you look any more intelligent than you are. And since you cannot add anything of value to the conversation, or direct experience, then your post has no relevance. Actually you make assumptions and conjecture, with no evidence that "open the cart up and replace the cantilever." can even occur. Perhaps it can, and perhaps it cannot. Given the answer from Dman, it appears that sometimes it can, and sometimes it does not work that way. It would be interesting to know the conditions that require a technician to choose one method over the other.
Regards
Mister Pig
Edits: 04/01/16
my post had zero to do with grammar. You were confusing two similar but ultimately different things and I was simply pointing out that retipping is different from rebuilding. I thought that maybe clearing that up would help you to better understand what the retippers/rebuilders are telling you.
Hi, Mister Pig,Jeffrey is correct, replacing the cantilever is not the same as a "retipping", but Soundsmith doesn't help in clarifying the matter. Soundsmith's website advertises "Phono Cartridge Rebuilding and Stylus Retipping Services", and explains the difference between replacing a cantilever & stylus (rebuild) vs the stylus alone (retip). But apparently replacing just the stylus is an expensive service so they typically "retip" with a cantilever stub and stylus for less money.
Your question is a good one, though. Soundsmith states that cantilevers can be replaced "unless the internal suspension or coils are damaged from the abuse to the cantilever" , which leads me to assume that replacing the coils is either very expensive or not something they attempt. So we're left with cantilever rebuilds being very similar to a "retip" using a cantilever stub with stylus. Ah, clear as Mississippi mud.
Regards,
Tom
Edits: 04/02/16 04/02/16
Actually this brings up another point worth considering. Exactly how is that diamond replaced on the end of a cantilever? From what I have heard there are 4, maybe 5 suppliers in the world of diamonds and cantilevers. The common way to obtain them is with the diamond already mounted to the cantilever, and you have to have a long standing association to buy unmounted styli. But once again, this is third party information, well some of it is second party.
Anyways, many of the higher end cartridges we buy have the cantilever drilled with a small hole to mount the diamond in, and then an adhesive for a second level of strength. Now if the stock cantilever is kept in place, how is the diamond removed? Is the adhesive bond broken, and the stylus able to be removed? I have heard (once again unsubstantiated) that some people grind down the stylus and then mount the new one. If this is the case, then is it just a contact bond, where we are depending on the adhesive bond to keep the stylus in place? Is it as good as the original mounting. If not, is it better to replace the whole cantilever, provided its obtainable and not a custom job like the diamond encrusted ones that Sumiko used on certain cartridges. And of course this is dependent on how the new cantilever is attached to the rest of the cartridge. Which relates back to the previous question.
It would just be nice to know the process, so a person can make an informed decision of what they are purchasing. I have had many retipped cartridges over the last few years, and enjoy them. I certainly appreciate the Denon 103M I have on a table, but I would just like to know what I am getting done for the money I spend.
Regards
Mister Pig
If you are this concerned about it, perhaps you should buy a microscope so you can look at the styli you've had replaced. Furthermore, I can't imagine why the repair service wouldn't answer all your questions before you send them a cartridge for retipping. Of course, I've never had even one cartridge retipped so I'm probably speaking out of my ass. However, it just seems to me that if I were as concerned as you are, I would resolve all these issues before ever sending my cartridge in for repair or retipping.
Anyway, here are some pictures of styli and cantilevers that show some are mounted through a hole and some are glued onto the front face of the cantilever.
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I have never gotten a comprehensive answer from a retipper on these questions. Getting an email back from Soundsmith has always been a hit and miss proposition, they are quite busy and try to keep their costs down so their services are affordable. The basic submission process is to get registered on line, get a RA# and send the cartridge in.Actually the typical answer from any retipper is "we have to evaluate the cartridge to determine whether it can be serviced or not." Which I certainly understand, it makes sense. But there must be a typical set of procedures that occur in the repair process, and I have never seen a detailed discussion of what might occur to a persons cartridge once it goes in.
Most owners are just happy to get their cartridge back in working order, at a price that is fairly reasonable. I get that. But what about if you go out to buy a vintage MC, lets say a Koetsu or a Kiseki that has been retipped. You know it may be different than a pure stock one, but those cartridges can never be replicated again. But exactly what are you buying now? What has been done to the cartridge? How will it deviate from when it left the factory? Are these changes in fact significant? To answer these kinds of questions, it is necessary to know what happens during the retip/refurbishment process. And if you have a specialty type cartridge, say a Lyra or a ZYX, or Transfiguration, you usually want to know what the variations of repair are before work starts on a $2K or more cartridge I would think.
In the past I have had cartridges done by Soundsmtih and Andy in Seattle. Um lets see, I did own an Accuphase AC2 that Expert Stylus had redone, but I bought it that way with 0 hours. So no direct involvement with Expert. I just sent an email off to the New Garrott Brothers/Audio Dynamics to see if they will answer the questions. If I get anything back I certainly will share it.
Regards
Mister Pig
Edits: 04/03/16 04/03/16 04/03/16
I shipped my Benz Micro Glider to Soundsmith yesterday. I just requested that a $75 inspection (applicable to repair cost) be done. I fully expect that I will have *some* kind of a conversation with Mr. Lederer, either by email or phone.
I will report back with more info when that happens. And I'll ask about exactly how a cantilever is replaced (with a ruby one, since that's the option I'm considering).
Thanks for your timely post!
Hmmm! I would think the repair service would have a general description of the work they do and how they do it so they could just send it out when people ask. In other words, they should have something like a FAQ so they wouldn't have to compose an individual answer to everyone who asks the question. Anyway, maybe this is why I've never had a cartridge retipped. I always just buy new cartridges. In fact, I've never bought a used cartridge, either.
Oh, well. To each his own!
Best regards,
John Elison
You would like to think there would be a FAQ answering that kind of information. But there has never been one I ran across. Sites do have basic FAQ, but none that address what is really being done, but rather what can be replaced, at best.
I understand you don't buy the ultra exotic cartridges these days. But for owners who do scrape their money together and buy an expensive cartridge, often the rational is I can send it back to VDH, Soundsmith, Expert...so on and so forth, and get it back to spec for $500. So it creates a value orientated perspective of how to justify the cost of that cartridge. But wouldn't you want to know what exactly is being done also?
I don't buy used cartridges very often, but sometimes I get bodies that warrant retipping. A friend sent me a Denon 103M that I had redone, and its a very nice cartridge that I use for casual listening. Unfortunately there is nothing out there in the Denon line up that is like the M derivative anymore. But it was worth spending money on.
But one day my ZYX 4D, which yes I bought new, is going to wear out. When that time comes, it would be due diligence on my part to understand what a third party retipper does to the cartridge if I send it to them. And all I am trying to discover is what the scope of repair techniques are, and what might separate the efforts of one shop over another. Certainly I could not DIY the retip myself, and I wouldn't be taking business from anyone. It is just for my own knowledge base to make an informed decision whenever the time comes.
Investing money in the 4D makes sense, but I would not be as likely to spend the same money on my OC 9 III or 33EV whenever they wear out. So knowing what is possible makes prudent sense, if I ever do anything with them. Now my Transfiguration Spirit III might warrant the money spent on it, once again if I knew what is possible.
But that is just how I look at things I suppose.
But no one seems to have definitive answers that they are willing to share on these points of cantilever replacement and diamond mounting.
Regards
Mister Pig
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