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I have a opportunity to acquire a pair of beautiful McIntosh MC 60s locally for a very good price.
As many of you know I have a pristine Sherwood S-5000 1st edition with the huge UL transformers and five slanted 12AX7s'.
Oh; Did I mention that it was rebuilt stem to stern by Mike Samra?
I don't have the time anymore to listen to multiple systems and different amps so I have conundrum. I hate for such a beautiful piece of gear to sit, but then I hate the idea of getting rid of it.
I acquired a very nice Audio Research SP3A-1 a couple years ago and have been patiently waiting to find the right mono amps to pair with it - It looks as though I found them.
If I pull the trigger and send the three to Saginaw for proper "McShaning/Samraing", I wonder if the sound will surpass my S-5000?
I understand with terror, hunger, civil strife etc that this is not a real problem - That's why I called it a conundrum......
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Follow Ups:
What's the verdict
The gentleman that has the MC 60s has agreed to let me have them for a couple of days, though I don't know how useful this will prove. According to him they haven't been used very much the past 10 years and I'm a little leary of wrecking something by just plugging them in.
I'm out of town right now, but I'll probably just take a leap of faith when I get home and buy them. Its not a money thing. I have been working without a contract for a couple of years and the union and management are going to settle soon. That means a bunch of back pay coming.
I know that Mike could make 'em sing with his all film cap supply as well as dumping the 12au7 for the 6cg7 phase inverter and whatever other witchcraft he performs.
The owner has a similar predicament; He has a all B.A.T. system as his everyday driver, but he's having a hard time parting with the Macs. Let me tell you, that B.A.T. gear with those Martin Logan Summits - Jeez that sounded magnificent!
Mikey has told me that he is getting 55 wpc from the MC 30s. That would be enough power, and in all honesty I like the sound of 6L6s better than the 6550/KT88. I know there are those here that don't but I sure do. Maybe the MC 30 would be a better fit.
Obviously I haven't heard every 6550/KT88 variety, but in general I think the 6L6 sounds fuller - But that's me.....
Another option is to just keep the Sherwood and get the Martin Logans with the integrated powered woofer. They are more money (2k more) but then I wouldn't have to get a bigger amp(s).
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I was never a big fan of the KT88/6550 sound much myself.
However the Gold Lion KT66's are wonderful!
email Mike on the side. He's honest and this way there is no pressure from jerks like ME!!! Only kidding. I just enjoy your enthusiasm!!!!
If money isn't the issue than wait for something special. Like a Marantz, Citation or even a sweeeeet set of VTA monoblocks or ST-120.
I feel you are just excited about just getting your hands on some Mac tube gear. If a Mac is what you want then get a nice one that Mike can CRANK on!!! Don't settle and make a lateral move. Put you hopes and restoration cash and into something special. Also Mike likes the nice ones to work on.
Charlie
I have six Mc60s and I'm putting new chassis on the two is not so nice condition. I also have a pair of Mc240s and an Mc275 and a pair of MA-230s.The Mc60s and the Mc275 are much like the Citation 2 in the sense that lean on correctness of sonics with a touch of euphoria and when you are using modern ESLs like the Martin Logan CLXs,this is important because these speakers love wide bandwidth amps that can strut their stuff.
There was a time I didn't care for my Mac amps because they sounded not so good and the mentality was to keep them stock at all costs.When I got my first mint pair back in the late 80s,the Mc60s sounded very good on the Beverage model 3 ESLs.Fast forward to 2004 because I had parked the amps for about 10 years as I was doing other things, I hooked the amps up and they sounded awful.I didn't measure any ripple on the filter caps so I figured everything was ok but then Elektron emailed me and said Mikey,don't give up on those amps because little did I know, you have to run the Mac amps producing power,before you can get a legit reading on ripple because at idle, they draw almost nothing..This turned out be true because once I changed out the filter caps and the bumblee caps in the phase inverter to voltage amp,along with the out of tolerance resistors,these amps were stunning after that. I then started on the Mc240 after I McShaned my Citation 2s so this gave me the idea to implement the complete McShane type rebuild to the Mac amps and loewen behold,I have NEVER heard an Mc240 sound so amazing.
Charlie,so many Mac and Citation amps get occasional bad rap in the audio sphere but ever since McShane figured a way to build an improvement strategy to cover both amps,you almost never hear anymore Mac/Citation bashing because a large percentage of them has had a McShane type rebuild done to them. Their sound and stability has improved on a grand scale.
It is such a shame that so many Mac amps got sold off to Asia and other places because people didn't know how to fix the issues with them.They also wanted the big money but since McShane,you don't find nearly as many Mac amps going to Asia anymore..People are now more compelled to hang on to them.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Edits: 08/08/16
Traded a Deuce for the long gun pictured alongside the Sig.
Charles;
I had a Citation II for a few weeks. I bought it and the SP3A-1 at the same time from a co-worker who's father was going into the nursing home. I won't even tell you what I paid because I stole it! I told my co-worker that it was worth more, but he didn't want to screw with ebay, shipping, feedback, Craigslist etc.....
I tried the Deuce with the SP3A-1 for a bit, and while it was nice I didn't like it as much as my S-5000. So, I traded it for a near new DPMS AR-10 (.308 NATO caliber). This weapon should NOT to be confused with the pussy AR-15 (5.56 x 45mm NATO) that is currently the rage for douchebags creating civil unrest.
While I have not heard the amplifier offerings from VTA, I have my doubts if their iron is in the same league as the vintage Peerless, Mac, Freed, or Acro-Sound. There is a reason that a single 55 year old Heathkit W-6 Peerless 16431 output transformer costs as much as your amp. Understand; I'm not trying to disparage your amp as I'm sure it sounds just fine, but in general - You pay more, you get more.
Mikey, Eli, or Don may wish to chime in here.
As far as Mike liking the nice ones to work on; I get it. He told me that my S-5000 was the cleanest he had ever seen. He also said the one with the five slanted 12AX7s and big ultra linear transformers was THE one to have. Plus, my vanity would not allow a chrome pitted ugly duckling on the rack no matter how good it sounded.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
That is why I keep a pair of small junk thrift store speakers around that I don't care about blowing.
Dave
Other than expense, I don't think you can make a bad choice.
Among vintage integrated tube amps, an original S5000 is about as good as it gets.
Mikey would definitely get a pair of MC60s into 1st class condition. In good repair, the ARC preamp and "Mac" amps should/will outperform the Sherwood.
It's nice when you're the fellow who says, and gets away with, "Heads I win, tails you loose".
Eli D.
Just my two cents worth but here it goes. The Sherwood is a wonderful stereo. What more can I say about it that I haven't already said.All you really are doing at this point is adding a different flavor to the music.
What I did was build a VTA ST-70 and added the Gold Lion KT66 output tubes. Holy CRAP! I'm done. At this point the only piece of gear I would ever want is a Marantz 8b or a Citation II. If you have the inclination to try and top the Sherwood is build the VTA or look for a Citation and skip the Mac.
The VTA is tight and articulate sound. A nice change up in tube sound from the Sherwood in a nice but different way.
Yes I am editing this and adding this part.
The new VTA ST-70 has a more modern tube sound. More energy on top and bottom while still keeping the midrange lush. It's not overly bloomy but very well balanced FR. Punchy were it's supposed to be with great micro and macro dynamic clarity. I think the 70 would be a good addition. As opposed to just adding onto what you already have a good example of!!!
What I do is rotate my system every month. One month the Sherwood. The next month the VTA. I don't switch them that frequently and they also don't just sit on a shelf unused.
charles
Edits: 08/06/16
Charles, I'm in the process of comparing those two amps, or at least trying to. If you are interested, you are welcome to e-mail me offline.
MC-60s are kinda syrupy. Not bad, but not like real life.
I guess it depends on what you want.
I do like the MC-225, though.
Quad ESL-57 friendly, too.
Photo taken at an undisclosed location in the Northeast some years ago; a local hifi'er with his DIY turntable and arm, aided and abetted by an APT Holman :-) and an MC-225.
all the best,
mrh
Give them a try especially if you can try and then re-sell without any loss. You must try this stuff to find out for yourself and your own tastes. I've had a lot of first hand experience with vintage and I'll tell you the Sherwood is a real sleeper especially for what they go for even now.
I did have the MC 30s as well completely refurbished those- they were some what opaque but I'm not a 6L6 fan - but that's just me. The only Mc tube I kept was the 225.
Attached is some of the vintage squad playing some tunes in the , at the time, unfinished basement.
AJ
When you rebuild the Mc30s with an film cap power supply and a low mu choke in place of the 150 ohm 10 watt resistor,these amps are transformed into three dimensional sonic marvel.You can run KT66s in them or even EL37s as one of those probably would tickle your fancy.Nice Marantz 2s
In Geezers case,he can't use an Mc225 because he needs more power as he getting some ESLs.If he got the ESL57s,the Mc225 would be more than sufficient.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
I have no experience with a properly rebuilt Sherwood (but "Sherwood" like to!).
We rebuilt a pair of MC30s with guidance from Jim McShane. If I could point to just one thing that they do better than any other amps I've heard, it's micro and macro dynamics. With the right system and source material they're unsurpassed and, in my experience, unequalled.
So my guess is that since the MC60s use the same topology as the MC30s they would sound every bit as good properly rebuild and customized. Replace the 12AU7 with a 6CG7 or 12BH7.
I used a 50uf film off the rect,a .32hy 10 ohm choke going from the 50uf into s 90uf film cap,a 35uf film feeding the front stages.
use 5 watt 12k resistors in place of the 12k 2 watt carbons
For couplers use a mix of film and foil and paper in oil...The .047s have to be a paper in oil or it can sound brittle..I always use the .047@1000v k40ys there but 630v is fine.
"
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
I think you would be shocked at how good the Sherwood really is.
I had one and it was quite amazing on the quad esl. I don't want to rain on your dream but the MC 60 may not be what you think it is. The only Mc tube amp that I like is the MC 225 which is a gem and I am more of a vintage Marantz tube fan.
I have the SP 3 now along with the MC 225, Marantz 8b,5,2,7 and 1,s various other tube vintage and new.
I had the MC 60 and the Sherwood you have. Best advice if you are keen, have them both in the house then decide. Mc looks great but I wouldn't go there unless it was a deal simply on sound quality expectations. YMMV and all that.
good luck
I rebuilt his Sherwood and he loves it and I was hoping he would keep it for a second amp but he wants to just have more power for the ESLS.
You often mention that you don't like the 6L6 based amps but there are many variants of the tube such as the EL37 or even a KT66s.In the Mc60s,he will have a few choices of 6550s and KT88s but Mac amps can made into sonic marvels rebuilt properly..THe new way of doing it doesn't hurt the value anymore as long as you don't drill holes in them..Here is the way I do an Mc60..This way you keep the original look and you can always put it back to original with no physical harm.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Well, then he obviously should have two MC225's and parallel the channels.
Jerry
Jerry
When you parallel amps,they can often times give up sonic depth that can be very noticeable in highly accurate and revealing speakers like the Magnepans,Martin Logans,and Soundlabs.I didn't mention any horns because they can usually work great with low power.
On my Martin Logan CLXs,I matched every component in both Citation 2s within 1% of each other.They go into the ML CLX speakers only so the powered subs at 100hz on down are alone, so basically the Citation 2s are loafing under most situations.The big panels are rated down to 55hz and I can run with one Deuce but U cross over at 100hz and run 2 amps and 2 powered ML Descent subs.My ESL panels are 91db efficient so that's pretty good.The CIT 2s are only running the panels from 100hz up.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Edits: 08/09/16
You are correct Jerry, I need more power.
A MC-225 would be a lateral move as it relates to power output since my Sherwood is putting out 23-24 wpc.
Now, the MC-30 on the other hand is interesting. Mike has been getting way beyond the published specs with these after rebuild - around 55 wpc!!
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
MC-225 and 8B... two of the best 'store bought' amplifiers, ever, to my ears.
I don't, so far, own an example of either. I DID get to rehab an 8B once; what a heck of an amplifier.
"before" photo
all the best,
mrh
These are some model 2s I had rebuild and I was comparing the 6L6gc black plates to the Amperex EL34s and the BPs had way more detail in these amps but made less power.
to this day,they are sitting in my mother's cedar closet at her house next door.The guy I got them bought them new and my daughter and I used to visit him a lot and he one adopted son that he had little use for..He wanted to give the 7c and the Scott 4310 as well and I said Al,let me get it later..Three months later he died at 96 years old..No,I didn't get the 7c or the 4310..I've known him for 22 years to that point.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
That is like that old tired story I always tell of the guy on my block that was an audiophile in the early 70's. He died and his widow as if I wanted all that tube crap. Me being 12 said no and bought some crap transistor stereo.
The pile of "crap" was tubes, stereos etc... and yes I DO!!!!! remember a Marantz on that pile.
How much power does Geezer need? Should he also try for a Citation or can he try the VTA. I LOVEEEEE that damn VTA!!!! The Gold Lion KT66s are amazing!!!!!!!!!!!! Tons of energy on the top and bottom end with endless micro detail. Wonderful stereo and tube match.
I just moved in to my house on the 4th and I JUST setup the Sherwood. It was the first thing I did in my room.
charles
Charlie
This man was incredible and the most soft spoken individual,one you could listen to for hours and hours and not get bored.He owned all the A&Ws in Flint and Grand Blanc Michigan and now his son has them..He had one adopted son who hardly ever came around being AL lived up in north in Beaverton Mi. My daughter was like 3 yo when I started going up there and being he had no grandchildren,he loved when we would come up to visit for a week at a time.
He had 1959 Chrysler Imperial in his garage that be bought brand new.I got it running by giving it a tune up and putting a new battery in it so he put the insurance back on it and we drove it everywhere.Al couldn't drive anymore.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Also I hooked up my Sherwood today after moving for four months.
Magic!!!! Thanks
charles
Lou was also a Ham operator. That was where I got my start in ham radio.
he was a wonderful guy and I would go over there for hours and hang out with him. He had a garage and back room FILLEDDDDDDDDDD with tubed stereos that people were just getting rid of. He was a fun and interesting guy that dies all too suddenly.
His widow offered me a pile of audio gear that today would have paid for my entire house!!!!
Wonderful guys Al and Lou and I think of Lou often.
Just wish I would have taken at least one of those Marantz's.
Charlie
Did Lou have Marantz tube gear as well? Al had the Marantz 9s,the 7C,and the Scott 4310..The speakers he had were the Quad ESL63s.All this stuff he bought new but he also had some Rogers LS5s and he was driving those with a Denon Integrated amp..That's how I met him because high end audio store in our town whom I was friends with,told me to go up there and help him hook it up..From then on,I had the grandpa I never had.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Yes it was ALL tube gear. He had shelves and shelves filed with stereos and tubes. At the time I was lusting after a Marantz 2230. So the Marantz logo always popped out at me. The model numbers???? But there were several Marantz's of various types. I know there were several amps and most definitely a few preamps. The preamps were very noticeable because of the look of them.
I'm sure he also had to other goodies like Citations and Fishers, etc.....
Funny but I don't remember much in the way of speakers????
charles
:-)
all the best,
mrh
The 2s are Marantz's best effort AFAIC..The model 9s I have are stock and I haven't turned them on since the late 90s but they were never that exciting to listen to..I may pull them out and try them with KT77s.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Source(s) and speakers permitting, you should discern a clear, if not earth shattering, improvement.
A pretty good case can be made for the original (7189) S5000 being the "best" vintage tube integrated amp. Top notch separates, of the kind you mentioned, outperform the S5000, but the S5000 is an excellent unit according to rational evaluation standards.
Eli D.
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