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In Reply to: RE: Power Supply Upgrade Results posted by Awe-d-o-file on May 29, 2013 at 21:11:24
Hello,You are going in the RIGHT direction, but no wheres near far enough.
You need not 5 V at 3 A., but at least two to three times that capability, say 7 to 10 A. to do it right, or almost right.
I have been experimenting with this the last month or two. You heard the difference, but you TRULY did NOT take it far enough ! Do so, and report back !!
Its the best and easiest way to get improvements in digital / analogue, none of the stock supplies are hefty enough to get the dynamics and fine resolution inherent in the performance and original recordings...the EEs underestimate the need for a real power supply. That is nothing new, they try to get "something for nothing", and they do NOT understand and always underestimate what it takes !!
GO, next do a triple wall wart, or whatever and HEAR that !!
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 05/30/13Follow Ups:
That is usually not the case, EE's tend to overbuild but marketing and upper management demands cost cutting to meet a certain price point or profit margin.
Edits: 05/31/13
A 10-Amp linear power supply for a device that draws less than an amp? OK, if you say so. ;-)
According to Paul McGowan of P.S. Audio,
From a May 2000 Stereophile interview (link below):
"Way back when Stan and I were partners—I was the "P" of PS Audio; the "S" was Stan Warren, who's off doing his own thing in Eugene, Oregon—I experienced a classic case of the value of listening to things as opposed to just trying to pencil everything out. We were just making preamps and phono stages, I don't think we were making a power amp at the time, and Stan called me into the listening room saying, "You've gotta hear this."
He sat me down and played me an LP.
I said, "Yes, that sounds fine."
Then he did a classic A/B—it was one of the biggest jaw-droppers I've ever heard.
"What the heck did you do?" I asked. We were listening to a phono stage, and I figured he'd done something to the circuit, because each one of us was playing around with circuits at the time.
"I changed the transformer!" he said. "I couldn't find the appropriate small little weeny preamp transformer we would normally hook up, but I found this large power-amp transformer that happened to be exactly the same voltage. I hooked it up and you heard the difference."
The only thing he did was change the transformer. We went from a 100mA transformer to a 10A transformer—exactly the same voltage, the circuit was drawing no more current—and the difference was just staggering. To this day it's one of the biggest differences I've ever heard.
We scratched our heads, we asked everybody we could, but neither of us had a clue why we could hear such a big improvement from the bigger transformer. We couldn't measure any difference, but we said, "What the heck, it works." So we began producing what we called the "High Current" power supply, an add-on box. We built 'em for years, actually, before we finally figured out what was happening. Which was the large transformer's very low secondary impedance, maybe under an ohm, whereas it's of the order of 35-50 ohms for a small transformer with the same voltage."
We went from a 100mA transformer to a 10A transformer
Where does it say that a 3A unit with only thirty times then that of the 100mA transformer wouldn't have had the same effect?
I agree that more is generally better - to a point.
I'm simply the reporter here, E-stat.
I agree with you that there's generally a law of diminishing returns with most things. My Modus operandi is that if I'm building a power supply with a draw of one amp, and a 5A transformer is $20 more than the 3A, I'll go with the five amp, especially if the secondary impedance specs are listed as lower with the 5A. Why? Peace of mind, based on that quote regarding Stan Warren's revelation.
the comparison in the story is very different from what we're discussing here.
This isn't a 100mA unit vs a 10A unit. It's one with thirty times 100mA vs one with just over three times that. Big difference.
As I just mentioned to Abe in another post in this thread, McGowan's understanding (which only came later) was that it was the larger transformer's lower secondary impedance which caused the improvement he and Stan Warren heard. The amount of amperage the transformer had the potential to supply wasn't the issue.
I just woke up (5 PM, damn shift work!) and am trying to grasp your point. Am I missing it, or are we talking about two different things?
Also, there was something I forgot to mention in another post, so this isn't directed at you, E. Steve McCormack, a generally well respected amp builder, also offers the "larger transformer" upgrade for his Micro series of components, and perhaps for others he's designed. Apparently he feels the larger transformer has something to offer sonically as well.
I guess since this is all speculation, er understanding, who's to know? As Abe indicated, what would be useful would be to track multiple points along the way.
OTOH, I've read where folks have said that replacing the 2A wall wart switcher supplied with my Touch with a 3A linear wouldn't make any difference. I'm here to tell you that it did with two different models. The noise level dropped, it lost a false sense of brightness and more resolution was evident.
Hi E-Stat,You state " what would be useful would be to track multiple points along the way."
Well, actually, I DID do controlled multiple stepped listening. I just didn't go from 100 mA. to 10A. in one step. I listened in steps.
In the case of my Conrad Johnson SD-1 CD Player, I went from one power transformer, with ten year's listening time, to two, and then to three and four. Four multiple levels of increase were heard !! Three was fairly good, four was superb.
Also, when I stopped using stock Philips CD Player power transformers ( I ran out of my supply ) I was able to use multiple Signal A41-43-16s, which were at 2.68 A. "steps" of current rating. Wow, BIG BIG improvement going from one ( 2.68 A.) to two ( 5.37 A.) of those. Didn't get (yet) to try out three ( 8.05 A.) and four, but, over time, I eventually will.
One other thing you should know, I am no novice. I have over thirty years of extensive DIY design experience listening to power supplies, specifically .....their iron, and the iron in their B+ filters (chokes).
This means I am usually intuitively correct in determining, ( DCR and current-wise ), what truly cuts the mustard musically.
Regards,
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 06/04/13
with DAC and transport. We're not comparing a CD player with a mechanical transport. The last CDP I had, a GamuT CD-1, had two completely separate power supplies. One for the transport and another for the DAC each with its own transformer and filter capacitors. That is entirely understandable.
This is only a DAC with a lower inherent current requirement.
Hello E-Stat,
Yes, all along I have been talking about a CD Player, not just a stand alone DAC.
Some day, in the future, I may get to experiment with a DAC and see what that takes. CD Players generally are weak when it comes to a generous power supply, and its the first thing I will modify...starting with the AC cord !!
Glad we were finally able to communicate. Cheers.
Jeff Medwin
.
A 10-Amp power supply for a digital streaming device that draws less than 1-Amp? Nothing wrong with that EXCEPT it is way overkill. By audiophile logic and ears, a 30-Amp supply would be even better! ;-)
Was add food for thought. I've read about your experiences with your PS Audio phono stage, and figured that bit of information coming from Mr. McGowan might be of interest to you.
I'll be honest and say I've never A / B'd a smaller vs. a larger transformer in the same circuit. But after reading about Stan Warren and Paul McGowan's bit of revelation, I've always built my power supplies using "larger than necessary" transformers. It doesn't cost that much more, from a DIY perspective, and when people with far more experience than me say it works, why not?
Dr low mu, you're welcome. I'm glad you found that portion of the Stereophile interview offered further corroberation with what your ears already tell you!
It was a good read, thanks.
"larger than necessary" is not a bad thing but insanely larger than necessary is just plain, well insane!
I suppose I could have used a couple parallel deep cycle marine batteries with a thousand cold cranking amps to power my Graham Slee phono preamp that required but a few milliamps, but I found my 7-Ah battery to be overkill several times over. ;-)
Was that it was the larger transformer's lower secondary impedance which caused the "jaw dropping" improvement, not the over-kill in amperage potential.
Regarding Graham Slee phono stages, I will find it interesting to try the "larger transformer" experiment on mine, now that I've got that crappy 7818 regulator out of there, and a Belleson Superpower in its place.
You state ..."Was that it was the larger transformer's lower secondary impedance which caused the "jaw dropping" improvement, not the over-kill in amperage potential."
These ( low impedance and high current rating ) are essentially one and the same thing !! A high current ( high amperage ) secondary will be wound with thicker wire, which IS lower in DCR, and which likewise IS lower in impedance.
The way to get "low DCR " and a "lower impedance" from a typical transformer winder is to specify a high current-rating transformer. They will then design and wind it to be BOTH low in DCR and it is ALSO low in impedance !!! Its like love and marriage, "you can't have one without the other".
Both the primary and the secondary has to be low in DCR for the most effective result, not just the secondary alone. I always specify DCR on the primary and secondary in my custom winds.
Jeff Medwin
This thread has been a very interesting read for a non-technical person. I am a total electronic ignoramous, but am very interested in diy methods of improving audio playback. My tweaks thus far, have included adding crystals, diy vibration dampening, ground loops, and color treatment of cords, fuses and cd's. These tweaks have totally transformed my system.
I have an Oppo BDP-95 cdp, Arcam DV 360 receiver(amp needs repair-tweaks!!), Acoustic Zen Adagio speakers, BMI Whale Supreme PC's, Morrow Audio MA 3 IC's, and MIT SP2 speaker cables.
Is there a basic diy electronic project or an add-on that anyone would suggest to me to take another step up the ladder. I wouldn't mind the transformer tweak, unless you suggest that is too much for an inital attempt.
kendo
Was to take a basic electricity course at a local night school. I also had a friend who I could discuss the basics with, and who would look over my shoulder.
The biggest issue (to me, anyway) was learning safety. Capacitors (especially large electrolytics) can store energy for a long time. Knowing the proper way to discharge them, and to make certain the circuit is "dead" prior to going in, is paramount. We want the circuit to be dead, not you.
Nobody else can tell you you're ready for something like that. Not over the internet, anyway.
Take a course, read about power supplies, watch soldering tutorials on you tube, etc. You'll find that the power supply is the heart of any component, and it can almost always be improved upon (provided there's room).
Good luck, be safe, and have fun.
Hi,
Lets cut top the chase. Two very important points here :
(1) You OBVIOUSLY have never thought to do this.
(2) Nor have you heard it.
Now that you have been spoon fed by me and Shovel, why don't YOU experimentally do this, and please tell us all what YOU hear.
30 A. is OK too, its sort of like a second turbocharger on a fine German motor. 10 A. will get you there I'd say, it is a decent compromise.
You might learn what Stan, Paul, and Jeff learned from their direct experiences ...a long long time ago !!
Shovel, THNX for posting that. I never saw it .... and LOVED it. Here is what someone in the industry from Europe emailed to me last month, ( after seeing a photo of my " triple supplied " CDB-2041, he wrote this to me : )
"I am shocked every time I see such claims. Last time a friend removed a 10 VA transformer from his Micromega Duo transport and installed outboard 1000 VA transformer of same secondary voltage and noticed a huge improvement. IN THE TRANSPORT ! I am glad you did this test. Well done."
Jeff Medwin
"You need not 5 V at 3 A., but at least two to three times that capability, say 7 to 10 A. to do it right, or almost right."
For a digital device that draws less than 1-Amp.... I'm sorry but this is insanity, and it made me laugh.
What is insane in my opinion is that you can't even conceptualize it, and try it out for yourself. Doesn't make sense not to try it out and listen. Golly, looks like you run a twin turbocharged BMW vehicle for PERFORMANCE, yet that audio supply you listen to in your home is Yugo-level inspired.
OPEN up your mind and apply imagination my friend.
Yes, 7 to 10 Amperes rated current for a low VAC supply...you will never do it any other way once you hear how wonderful that sounds. You will hear beautiful inner detailing of musical notes and true-to-life fabulous dynamic contrasts...no comparison !!
What you don't get is a BORING musical presentation ..." I wonder how it really was when they recorded this?"
Jeff Medwin
Your automobile analogy is very weak.
OPEN up your mind and apply imagination my friend.
I have no need to add a 10-Amp power supply to a digital device that draws less than 1-Amp. The 2-Amp linear supply that I use sounds just fine thank you very much.
Hey, why did you stop there? By your logic, a 30-Amp power supply bulging out of your player/transport should be even better. Where's your imagination my friend?
I ended up with FOUR stock power transformers in parallel and that seemed to give me an adequate result. It also gave me a performance level that was surprisingly good. After hearing four, I could not go back to three.But what is necessary in a CD Player is (1) the low Z power transformers AND (2) split up supplies, for various stages and modes of operation, digital and analogue, so that the noise from various functions don't "talk back" to each stage, through a common ground.
Things like Belleson regulators are very good, and I approve of them, but the "goodness" or low Z of the SOURCE, the power transformer, ahead of the regulator, is always CLEARLY heard through any active regulator.
This means substituting a 10 Ampere power transformer in place of a 1 Ampere power transformer, for a sub 100 milliampere load. Seven to ten Ampere power transformers will simply sound better, no matter WHAT regulator you are using, Belleson or cheap stock three terminal ones.
I have done this, many times, over 30 years, so I can tell you people "it ain't theory"..... I have HEARD it. If anyone does this, they will learn and hear it for themselves.
Also, its impossible for anyone who is discriminating to return to listening to "lower VA" power transformers, once you experience the differences in dynamics and micro detailing.
This is VERY easy to A-B.
One MUST use good internal wiring techniques and good wire, I usually find a triple parallel run of Kimber Kable TCSS sounds OK, and gives the biggest safe audio bang for the buck.
Plain old "heavy" wire (12 AWG for example) will usually sound muffled and roll off the highs. Thin wire will sound coherent but miss much of the peak audio energy and "body" to the music, so it alone is NOT the answer for best fidelity. The goal is linear sound with all the detailing and .... to retain MOST of the music's original dynamics !!
Triple paralleled TCSS is fairly safe as internal power supply hook up wire in most applications.
Replacement of the typical stock CD player's AC cord is always the first thing to do, as it is a performance killer from the get go. Look into heavy gauge Pangea AC cords. The path of internal wiring from the AC cord to the power transformer's primary (and secondary) needs to be thoughtfully addressed, BEFORE adding sixty dollar Belleson regulators.
Always remember this, what you do before the active regulator is always clearly heard through the active regulator, starting with the AC cord and the power transformer ratings.... for sure!! One must think in terms of PEAK instantaneous dynamic requirements, which most people, unfortunately for them, seldom do.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 06/03/13
"Hey, why did you stop there"
Be warned, very warned: you are starting to sound like me!
An observation is not an explanation...
Rick
Before we continue this Internet battle, can we please stop and notice that Paul McGowan attributed the benefit of the larger transformer to its much lower "secondary" impedance? Could that be the crux of the issue here?
(I will admit I don't know what "secondary" impedance is.)
"Before we continue this Internet battle"
This 'taint a battle, it's but a discussion. However the actual subject may be a bit obscure.
"Paul McGowan attributed the benefit of the larger transformer to its much lower "secondary" impedance? Could that be the crux of the issue here?"
Well, it is the crux in a way, the real issue is WHY did he attribute it to that and what did he do to establish causality.
The power transformer's secondary impedance can not directly affect the signal integrity so if it matters the next step is understanding how and where the interaction is occurring.
Abe has it right, if two transformers are good how about ten of them? What this sort of thinking and exploration does is establish limits and sensitivity. If adding transformers monotonically increases the goodness then you "have a handle" on the problem: you can dial the goodness up and down. At that point you are in a good position to eyeball the various signals and busses in and out of band to see what's changing as you turn the goodness crank and hopefully will be able to sift out the root cause(s).
This is just a straight-forward, everyday engineering process, nothing unique to audio. Having not read Paul's writings I have no idea how this shook out.
Rick
The transformer destermines the Z of the circuit, larger PT with a low DCR winding, has lower Z. You dudes should think in dynamic terms.
Jeff Medwin
"The transformer destermines the Z of the circuit"
Oh? Your world is a simpler, more beautiful place than mine. Everything from the generator at the dam to the ESR of your filter capacitors are in that loop.
"You dudes should think in dynamic terms."
I do. And my thinking is that by the time you shuffle in the PSRR of the preamp stage itself along with all the other terms that the DCR of the transformer secondary is probably small potatoes. Or at least should be.
Bear in mind that this is all just a speculative argument for entertainment and fun. Without access to exactly the same gear we can't really sort it out. If I were to guess, and brother it's just that, I'd suspect that the noise profile from the power line and rectifiers were the culprits. Remember that in a low power design the rectifier conduction angle is fairly small and a lower impedance source makes it smaller yet. That reduces the window for noise to couple through which may be a good thing.
Another possibility is that the transformers differed in yet another way that wasn't quantified. Perhaps the higher current model also had less effective primary to secondary capacitance, that would be, IMHO, far more important than it's DCR. I don't know about your power lines but my power comes from pristine snowpacks melting into the mighty Columbia and rolling on through the BPA dams and into my stereo. And it looks like shit! I would be willing to post a picture of mine if we want to have an ugly power contest; time and loads have changed since Guthrie's time... Everyone want's theirs off the top, chokes cost money, weight and size.
Rick
JLH from 2009, speaking of tube amps, but it applies. "Transformer DCR sets dynamic impedance".
Cheers....BTW, Its what I hear, every time, I have changed power trannies and listened methodically.
Jeff
"JLH from 2009, speaking of tube amps, but it applies. "Transformer DCR sets dynamic impedance"."
Yea... And he had plenty of critics in the same thread adding clarification at the least. The best one you dismissed out of hand "who was that masked man (roughly)".
Usually the design approach with lower power "signal" stages, which I think this thread is about, is to try and have localized voltage sources for each critical stage. Often this amounts to a very close, low ESR capacitor but sometimes it involves local regulators.
Rick
snubbers in rectifier circuits is well known and an established audiophile tweak. Most such circuits work on the diode spike entering the component circuitry. It has been my observation that that same spike enters the power transformer secondaries and thus affects all secondary windings. I place small AC caps across the legs of the lower voltage taps (I am a tube man and B+ voltages are pretty high at times). It significantly warms up the sound and gives greater midrange and upper end detail.
Of course this is posted in regards to the reference to diode/rectifier noise. we always are careful about the noise entering the circuit, but forget the noise can be reflected back through the transformer windings.
No proof just experimental results.
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