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In Reply to: RE: OK so if all theories are welcome, here are mine. posted by bartc on April 08, 2011 at 15:08:08
I actually agree with most of your theory. I also suspect the unique atomic structures of non-quartz crystals are what gives them their distinctive sonic characteristics.However, while it's true many crystals are piezo or pyro electric, I don't think those properties are the operating mechanisms for most audio applications. I suspect the operating mechanism has to do with the crystal's unique lattice structure you describe - and I suspect it's that symmetrical lattice structure that dictates how the Atoms themselves behave in the presence of mechanical/acoustic vibration or RFI/EMI. But this atomic behavior is different from the piezo effect a "macro effect," the physical crystal itself is deformed. These Atomic mechanism(s) can also explain why the sonic performance of crystals varies according to type, whereas the piezo theory, in my opinion, has quite a bit of difficulty accounting for the variation in sonic results.
Edits: 04/08/11Follow Ups:
Geoff,
The only things those crystals have in common are:
1) they are lattices,
2) their bases are silicates
3) they are all piezoelectric because of the two above factors.
All their differences don't negate any of that; they in fact explain why their effects aren't identical still well within the piezoelectric theory.
What you describe as the interaction of the lattice structure with RFI/EMI and vibrations is precisely the piezoelectric phenomenon.
I remain consistently and completely in the dark as to what you think doesn't fit and what your theory really is. I'm not criticizing you here; just scratching my head!
When a crystal is placed on a wall or on a pane of glass the mechanism cannot be piezoelectricity because there is no squeezing of the crystal since the force (of vibration) is in one direction only. The *squeezing* of the crystal is what produces a voltage - i.e., the piezoelectric effect. Same for when the crystals are placed on top of a CD player or top of a speaker cabinet - there is no squeezing, thus no piezoelectric effect. (yes, I realize that some will argue that EMI/RFI is everywhere so every location of crystals must be EMI/RFI related.) The mechanism I'm referring to lies in how the atoms - which are aligned in precise, symmetrical arrangements in the crystal lattice - move along their directions of motion when perturbed by an external force. It's the excitation/motion of the atoms that is absorbing the vibration.
Edits: 04/08/11
What makes you think piezoelectricity requires a "squeeze"? It can be engendered by simply vibration - mechanical energy period. At least, that's my understanding.
As to the dual directionality, that's what I keep telling you: The electrical field is reversing the piezo effect, but it's the same mechanism. This works in both directions, Geoff.
What are you missing here??????
As to crystals working when way out in the room, you are one of the few I hear who espouses that that particular mechanism works at all! What all of us are talking about is ONLY the use in proximity to the electrical fields around the wires and the coils of wire.
"What makes you think piezoelectricity requires a "squeeze"? It can be engendered by simply vibration - mechanical energy period. At least, that's my understanding."Nope, a squeeze is required. As in the Acoustic Revive stand with the bag of quartz. When the crystal is vibrated it behaves as I just got through explaining - via atomic mechanisms unrelated to the piezo effect. Vibration per se doesn't produce a squeeze.
The word piezoelectricity means electricity resulting from pressure. It is derived from the Greek piezo or piezein, which means to squeeze or press.
"As to the dual directionality, that's what I keep telling you: The electrical field is reversing the piezo effect, but it's the same mechanism. This works in both directions."
The reverse effect is applying a voltage and obtaining a squeeze, a deformation.
"As to crystals working when way out in the room, you are one of the few I hear who espouses that that particular mechanism works at all! What all of us are talking about is ONLY the use in proximity to the electrical fields around the wires and the coils of wire."
But I am talking about their use on components, speaker cabinets, power cord plugs, walls, glass, interconnects, around electron tubes as well as in room corners and other strategic locations, on top of tube traps, even in the 3-D space of the room, to name a few. Why limit yourself?
Edits: 04/08/11 04/08/11 04/08/11 04/08/11 04/08/11
... the mass of the crystal?
Any vibration impinging on the crystal that can not make it move as a whole DUE TO IT'S OWN MASS, will tend to flex the crystal, rather than move it as a whole.
These would be primarily higher frequencies, including RFI/EMI frequencies.
Thus, above the mass inertia point of any given crystal IT IS vibrating internally (not moving in unison or as a whole). If piezoelectricity being damped is the working mechanism, then it could come into play above that mass inertia point.
Jon Risch
"... the mass of the crystal?Any vibration impinging on the crystal that can not make it move as a whole DUE TO IT'S OWN MASS, will tend to flex the crystal, rather than move it as a whole.
These would be primarily higher frequencies, including RFI/EMI frequencies.
Thus, above the mass inertia point of any given crystal IT IS vibrating internally (not moving in unison or as a whole). If piezoelectricity being damped is the working mechanism, then it could come into play above that mass inertia point. "
..........................................................................
If the atoms' motion inside a free-standing crystal is absorbing mechanical vibration - the speed and distance of travel of the atoms are proportional to the force of vibration - then larger vibrational forces will only make the atoms move faster and farther along their lines of motion, i.e., conservation of energy.
For any size crystal, even a large one, larger forces of vibration will excite the atoms to move faster and farther along their lines of motion, heating the crystal further. The atoms act like they are attched by springs and return to their rest position during the back and forth cycle due to binding forces. So, flexing or distortion of the crystal is not necessary in order to dissipate the mechanical energy, even when the energy is high or the size of the crystal is large. The motion and mass of the atoms is sufficient.
GK
Edits: 04/11/11
of the atoms are generally regarded as being part of the piezo effect, and in diagmagnetic material, which pretty much all materials are, the E or H fields passing through the material generates a movement of the electron field related to the direction of the field applied. This of course creates a slight magnetic field because the electrons tend to move towards one side of their orbit ( at least the outermost electron shell). It is this transformation of the energy field which makes the use of crystals important in my thinking.
The laws of thermodynamics impose a conservation of energy. You can transform the energy but you can not eliminate them. I believe we are using the crystals to take the absorbed energy and convert them into heat through motion.
By your thinking, actually all materials, irregardless of their composition, has a certain mass damping effect. Room tunes uses fiberglass fill on their corner tunes, Enacom uses a plastic sticker: Harmonix uses a a little chicklet sized piece of constrained layer damping. All these devices transform the acoustical energy in a room into another form.
You don't need a crystal, and certainly a crystal may not be the optimum device for room damping.
Check out the new Verizon Hall in Philadelphia: they make extensive use of woods to break up reflections and to dampen sound. You don't see them using crystals in their acoustic design. No musical instrument I know of uses crystals to generate their sound, which says a lot about the use of crystals to control acoustic modulation.
Of course YMMV
Stu
"Excitation of the atoms are generally regarded as being part of the piezo effect."
As I just got through saying the other day, the piezo effect is regarded to involve the *deformation* of the crystal, the old squeeze/voltage thing, remember? The voltage is proportional to the squeeze/deformation, remember? Hel-looooo!!
"The laws of thermodynamics impose a conservation of energy. You can transform the energy but you can not eliminate them.
Well, DUH! - is there an echo in here? I just got finished saying that.
"I believe we are using the crystals to take the absorbed energy and convert them into heat through motion."
Geez, Luis, I just got finished saying that, too..
Seems odd you're commenting on things you haven't tried, I thought that was against your principles or something. Anyhow, crystals are actually outstanding for dissipation of mechanical and acoustic energy - out in the room - due to their physical characteristics. That's why SteinMusic, Acoustic Revive and yours truly are using them for controlling room acoustics, among other things. You're simply making (Geez, another) Strawman argument by comparing crystals to diffusers, mass dampeners, room dampers and such. You DO know what a Strawman Argument is by now, don't you??!!!!
"Check out the new Verizon Hall in Philadelphia: they make extensive use of woods to break up reflections and to dampen sound. You don't see them using crystals in their acoustic design."
Pity Verizon Hall doesn't use crystals. But not too surprizing, even most audiophiles don't use crystals. These things take time to work their way into the Acoustical Society of America and AES old school types. LOL
Same goes for your statement, "No musical instrument I know of uses crystals to generate their sound, which says a lot about the use of crystals to control acoustic modulation." Yup, you guessed it folks, another Strawman Argument!
Look up piezo electricity in almost any manual. Application of a voltage, and it does not have to be a direct voltage, but also a EMI field, generates crystal motion. A controlled direct voltage will generate a steady vibrational frequency when applied to a specific shape. Random sized crystals and varying fields have a much more varying effect.
After this, I will no longer attempt to define the piezo effect any further, at least not with you. As Bart points out, your ideas are so firmly fixed you do not see any further beyond the dogma you preach.
I have already stated that anything in a sound room will affect the acoustical properties,(Hello, are you reading?). Crystals are not the most effective, in my experience, at controlling acoustical vibration, and believe me I have some 15 pounds of various quartz based crystals of different sizes, even jewelry findings which are faceted. You are jumping to conclusions that I have not experimented with them. I have tried all the objects I have listed and even have had your Brilliant Pebbles Jars.
Sorry, yours were the least effective.
Of course YMMV, but then again I don't smake them either.
Stu
You did not have the instructions for Brilliant Pebbles - so I'm not surprised they were not effective for you. As we saw from Carcass' post the wrong location can hurt the sound. So, ya see, you can;t just place the crystals willy-nilly around the room, you need to have a plan. LOLI suspect you're confusing flexing/vibrating of the crystal itself with the atomic motion I've proposed.
Good luck with all your Strawmen, I know you'll be very happy. LOL
Edits: 04/11/11
I got a brand new unopened package. Even talked with you at the time although you may not remember.
Stu
You're obviously "bluffing." The instructions do not come with the "brand new unopened package" of Brilliant Pebbles.
That is SO funny. Oh, well, better luck next time. LOL
what legitimate manufacturer would supply a product without recommendations of placement or use? I distinctly remember a sheet of recommendation for placement that my friend gave me. I also played around with the BP at CES in a booth with some bookshelf speakers. Over all assessment, including those of the people in the booth, was negligible with over half not hearing a difference worthy of the price tag.
Stu
Why should anyone care about the "assessment" by you and guys in the booth at CES think? A booth at CES? Gimme a break. LOL
Edits: 04/12/11
you were the one who dropped it off.
LOL
Stu
Dropped what off where? I never dropped anything off at any booth at CES. Booths are too, uh, disembodied. I make it a point to stick with big important systems.
add that most metals are crystalline in structure. Shouldn't use of metals have the same effect in your theory?
Stu
As bartc said, piezoelecricity is a two-way street: a mechanical deformation can produce an electric current or an electric field can create a mechanical deformation. In a radio crystal, an electric current is applied to a crystal causing the crystal to deform. The deformation of the crystal, in turn, creates an electrical charge which in turn creates more deformations. Some of the deformations and elecrical fields cancel each other out; others reinforce eachother. This leads to the crystal vibrating at a single resonant frequency. With the oddly shaped crystals that we are dealing with, the interactions are probably more complex causing RFI absorption at multiple frequencies. It seems likely that the "doping" caused by the various chemical impurities modifies this electro-mechanical system too.
Actually the deformation/squeezing produces a voltage, not a current. The voltage is proportional to the deformation, that's what the original discovery was for the piezoelectric effect. The little meter in the animated GIF I proved in my recent post on this thread is a Voltmeter!
Furthermore (as I keep repeating) when the crystals are placed in the room where there is high acoustic energy, such as room corners and on walls or glass, and on the top of speakers, it's pretty clear EMI/RFI is not involved. So, you guys are going to have to come around to my way of thinking at some point - that the crystals are not acting on EMI/RFI in many cases, possibly even including locations such as power cord plugs and circuit breaker boxes and on top of electronic component chasses.
Ta Ta for now
...instead of talking down to the rest of us without offering any useful explanations--as is your usual practice. I've used QR8s on wall surfaces and they do seem to work there, although not with as much effect as when they are near electronics. When I bought them--about three or four years ago--I tried them in the locations that Acoustic Revive suggested. Some of these locations worked, most produced marginal results. The explanations on their web site are poor translations from Japanese originals and don't seem to offer much inight into the mechanisms at work.
For example, "We, ACOUSTIC REVIVE, have tested every possible material that never generates own tone of the material and improves sound quality. Finally we found out pure smoky quartz and pure quartz as a material of the insulator."
And, "There are some theories why the quartz improves sound. Some say that the pure quartz absorbs an electromagnetic wave, some another say that the pure quartz controlls vibration, or that the pure quartz radiate far infrared light. Anyway pure quartz have effects of improving sound that are never gained from the other materials."
What I took from this "white paper" is that Acoustic Revive has found some stuff that improves the sound of audio but doesn't really know how it works. Or if they do, they can't afford a translator who can explain it in plain English. And Machina Dynamica?
You just won't take No for an answer.
Sorry to hear you didn't have much luck with the AR thinggies, of course that (marginal results) is no proof of anything, really.
"Never up, never in." ~ old audiophile saying
interesting to read your "explanation". You do realize that the peizo electric phenomena also works by an EMI field causing the crystal to vibrate, right? That is the principle of how those crystal oscillators work in digital clocks and radios and cell phone. In those cases, an electrical signal is applied to a precisely sized quartz crystal which will then oscillate at a set frequency and thus stabilize the selected tuning frequency.
The piezo effect works in both directions.
Stu
I'm quite familiar with what the piezo effect is; what I'm trying to say is that just because there IS such a thing as piezoelectricity doesn't necessarily mean it is the explanation for all cases, as in the cases I just got through mentioning. And simply because crystals are used in certain electronic devices is not proof that crystals must always work by peizoelectricity. That would be illogical."An electrical signal is applied to the crystal" - yes, a voltage. How much voltage is in EMI/RFI, one wonders....hmmmmmm? By the way, the piezoelectric affect states when a voltage is applied the crystal deforms, not vibrates. It compresses along one axis, elongates along the other. I.e., it's the opposite of squeeze/voltage.
Edits: 04/08/11 04/08/11
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