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In reaction to recent events, one poster in a thread below complained that Tweaker's Asylum had become "indistinguishable from Cables."
Seems to me it has become more and more a colony of the Isolation Ward.
Some inmates have reacted negatively to this shift in emphasis toward the fanciful and unprovable, to the extent that one recently "had to be" banished for his "annoying" insistence on the verifiability and scientific foundation of unsubstantiated claims of the paranormal.
He was unforgivably naive in his failure to realize that the delusional will NEVER be convinced by rational arguments that contravene their cherished beliefs. He should have saved his breath. Burn, heretic, BURN!
Perhaps the moderators should cut this baby in half, and form TWO "Tweaker's Asylums."
One, dedicated to the original principle of "DIY Tweaks." Emphasis on scientifically founded and verifiable DIY methods (as opposed to commercial products) for improving the performance of one's audio system through vibration control, electronic shielding, etc. This could (and should) include physical measurements in instances where the experimenter is able to take them, with sufficient documentation of measurement conditions to ensure replicability.
The other, pure fantasy land. Rational skepticism absolutely verboten. All claims of "audible improvement" to be believed implicitly, with NO standards of proof or reference to known principles of physics required. (Pseudoscientific hocus-pocus encouraged, of course). This could be a home for both harmless and inexpensive DIY tweaks like unterminated conductive dangle thingies you hang from your negative binding posts (I actually tried this, Lord forgive me), and the consensual financial intercourse of willing dupes and shysters.
I could actually contribute to the latter. I will post later this GREAT tweak I discovered that involves the drawing of encircled pentagrams around my speakers, while burning black candles and chanting the names of Asmodeus and Tetragrammaton backwards.
Follow Ups:
Here is my take on Scientific Measurements!!!!!
Years ago a man had a very, very bad Spinal injury on the job.
He went to the Hospital to get some Scientific tests done on him. They used a machine called an X-Ray.
After the X-Rays were done, they told the man, that they could not find anything wrong. The man said maybe you don't know how to take the proper Scientific Measurements!!
All the Doctors laughed + laughed, one could also hear the people from Workmens Comp laughing + laughing. They thought the man was NUTS, he was faking it, his problem was NOT REAL!!
They told him they could do repeated tests and Double blind tests and the results would be all the same!!!
But the Man knew something was wrong!!
Years later he walked to the Hospital with his cane and moving very slowly, he said, I understand you have some new way of taking Scientific Measurements. They said Yes, it is called a CT Scan.
So the man was sure that with this new way of taking Scientific Measurements (CT Scan) would show his problem and maybe how to fix it.
But after he had the CT Scan, the Doctors again said, they could find nothing wrong.
They again thought the man was NUTS and was faking it.
One Doctor even told the Man that he was NUTS, (that Doc was never seen again)
So again, years later the Man walked into the Hospital all hunched over and slowly walking with his cane. He said errrr.. hey Sonny , I understand you have new type of Scientific Test that is much better than the ones in the past. He said yes Sir, it is called an MRI and it will show us everything.
So the Man had the New Scientific Tests done.
The Doctor before going to see the Man after the tests, could be seen talking to other Doctors and looking and pointing at the Man.
Soon the Doctor came into the Mans room,and at the same time, the room was getting smaller as many other Doctors and nurses were coming into the room. They (Doctors and nurses) could not believe what had just happened.
They had found the Mans problem, after all the different types of State of The Art Scientific Tests that were done in the past, they were of no use. But NOW, NOW they could see that the Man had a Tumor like sack inside his spinal column, it was filling with fluid and then pushing the nerves against the inside of his spinal column.
Doctors were seen apologizing to the man, nurses were seen crying, many offered to have his children. The Doctor that had disappeared years earlier showed up to shake that mans hand and apologize!!
So when it comes down to our tweaks, maybe someday Science will catch up to us and we will be able to show measurements. In the meantime I hope you Nay Sayers don't hold your Breath!!!
is that they ignore the science if a tweak is a bit too peculiar for their tastes. It took me a while to understand how RFI could degrade lower frequency audio signals, and it took a bit longer to get a solid sense of what it sounded like in practice. Once the understanding and the experience were in place, power conditioning, crystals and some aspects of power cords made sense to me, and their effects were clearly audible. I have even verified the influence of these tweaks by bringing them in and out of my system with "non-audiophile" listeners listening; and they could clearly hear the difference.If I had lubricated my bicycle chain and reported that it made my bike move more effortlessly, I doubt that I would have been challenged to concoct a double-blind test to verify my observations. I also doubt that the double-blind crowd really knows what goes into a properly designed double-blind test anyway. So hooray for science, and to hell with the ostriches!
Edits: 01/07/11 01/07/11 01/07/11
it's called "Prop Head".
They also have T2. Curious as to why they frequent here, after all, all they need is the technical and measurement side, don't they?
Stu
Due, in part, to being overrun by self-styled "subjectivists" with their imbecilic "measurements don't prove anything" mantra. I get the distinct impression that some of these "true believers" won't be satisfied until their little inquisition has run every last rational contributor off of every one of these boards.
Oh well. PE Tech Talk is still predominantly a site for people who actually design things, build things, measure things, and understand how things work. Tweakers Asylum is occasionally a subject of much mirth over there, basically regarded as a joke but good for occasional cheap giggles. Try posting about some of these "miracle" tweaks over there, and be prepared to be laughed out of the room.
It seems so objective somehow.
Like the opposite here.
So is it: 'Opposites Attract' or 'Everyone Back To Your Respective Corners?' 8-)
"A site for people who actually design things, build things, measure things, and understand how things work. "
I'm sure.
"Try posting about some of these "miracle" tweaks over there, and be prepared to be laughed out of the room. "
He who laughs last laughs best. By the way, when they laugh does milk shoot out of their noses?
- people interested in tweaks, regardless of whether their effect is currently measurable, whether they even care about measuring, and regardless of whether it's audible to others - these stay here;
- people interested in measurements, regardless of the audibility of these measurements, and in endless demanding various forms of PROOF of others - these quietly leave.
The second group can form their own forum, preferably as far away from here as possible, and call it something like "Proof Demanding Asylum". However, as it was correctly pointed out below, there is one already, called HydrogenAudio - so two probably won't be sustainable.
I believe, sir, I shall take your advice. This place used to host useful discussions on power conditioning, acoustic room treatments, resonance control, how to build equipment cabinets and speaker stands, etc.
Now it's mostly unsubstantiated claims to paranormal effects, utterly unfounded in facts, logic, or the laws of science. Anyone who dares speak up for reason or common sense is vilified, derided, and ultimately exiled. The superstitious and ignorant, along with the unscrupulous charlatans that prey upon their gullibility, have made it abundantly clear that anyone with any grounding in reality is unwelcome. So be it.
For awhile it was entertaining in a sick sort of way, like visiting a freak show, but now it's just a bad joke gone stale. Enjoy your little wank-fest to your hearts' content. None shall say thee nay.
Well, I guess we can't have everything - so instead of "quietly", I would settle for "permanently".
If you read your own posts carefully, you will notice that there's no substance related to tweaks in any form or shape, measurable or not - only disappointment, bitterness, and confrontation. That is something this forum would definitely be better off without.
"Now it's mostly unsubstantiated claims to paranormal effects, utterly unfounded in facts, logic, or the laws of science. Anyone who dares speak up for reason or common sense is vilified, derided, and ultimately exiled. The superstitious and ignorant, along with the unscrupulous charlatans that prey upon their gullibility, have made it abundantly clear that anyone with any grounding in reality is unwelcome. So be it."Hmmmmm, you don't say. Say, isn't that pretty much what the elders on Bora Bora said when someone first showed them a camera and a television?
Edits: 01/06/11
resonance control, how to build equipment cabinets and speaker stands, etc."Still does, still will.
So you take (and contribute) what you can use and leave the rest for others.
That's what I do, and you don't see be bitchin' and blathering like
a brat when something that doesn't "agree" with me is discussed.Move on if you need to, but realize your infantile attitude and behavior will likely
follow you, and nothing will change for you but your geography.You seem like the type that's going to be stuck wherever you are.
" Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination." -Michael McClure
Edits: 01/06/11
:-)
One of the big audio discussion boards back in the 1990's was at Audio Review. There was a constant battle between the so called scientific proven and those who explored new ideas. During 1999 Rod and gang decided to start another site to allow discussion without that constant criticism. Seems to me all they are doing is reaffirming that commitment.
This forum, as I've understood it, is for inventors and explorers, not just measurement experimenters. While you can approach invention from both angles, discounting the clever that works because you can't pin down a provable theoretical basis is actually counter-productive - here and in the "rational" world!
So this nonsensical "You gotta prove it to me, or you're an ass" type of derogatory post is the problem, not the validity of the posters awe at their latest discoveries (real or imagined).
Yes, if someone is trying to sell something to you, you should certainly ask for proof that it works as advertised. But this place is not supposed to be about sales at all.
So those of you whose bias is clearly showing, go read Stereophile instead, where JA gives you more measurements than many of us can even comprehend. (That's not a swipe at Stereophile or JA, BTW.) If you're going to participate in this type of forum, however, you need to be more polite and a bit more open in your inquiries that the more than one poster who has been temporarily sidelined.
There is NO reason for someone who basically doubts these tweaks to hang out here and troll for a fight.
"So this nonsensical "You gotta prove it to me, or you're an ass" type of derogatory post is the problem,"
Correct me if I'm wrong I might have missed it but I did not see in any post where Steve Eddy addressed anyone with that language.
He did challange some to explain their premis and possibly back it with theory. At times the exchange got heated but more so by those whom Steve questioned. It does no good to paraphrase for someone who cannot answer for themselves. And it now seems to me because he cannot answer for himself you all seem to want to come out and be a bunch of tough guys.
Steve kept telling us to raise the bar on scientific proof. Had he done so in a polite and respectful manner, he'd still be here to dispute what he doubts so much.
I'm not here to nail Steve. I'm here to hear what others are experimenting with. That's what some folks here lately seem to be trying to kill. And I think that's both the essence of this forum and the essence of the problem that's bedeviling it, in that order.
YMMV, of course.
Naturally, we're still discussing S.E. here. He never asks anyone to prove their listening impressions, it's only when they make scientific claims that they run afoul of his dogged pursuit of reality.
If you claim a scientific fact, you need research to back it up. "audibility" is different than "sounds better to me". The former means that it's perceptibly different on its own. I'd say that DBT/ABX mask some things that are audible, and thust have their own issues, but that's another issue.
Just don't make claims that rely upon science or statistics and you're in the clear.
Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.
in his mind's eye adding the word definitely as in "are definitely audible" makes it scientific. To me, that's a personal qualifier, stronger than I heard it most of the time and a lot more than I think I could tell, not a statistical claim. And who's to say, in different systems, with varying qualities of power supplies, AC variability and noise/distortion levels and ambient noise levels, it may not even apply.
to make it appear they know all there is about science."Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - A. Clarke
Edits: 01/06/11
nt
Jokes rely on upsetting the balance between what is socially acceptable and what is forbidden by using the forms of the socially acceptable to express forbidden impulses (cf. Freud, "Jokes and their Relation to the Unconscious"). In your post, you invert this process by using the methods of the forbidden (vituperation, etc.) to introduce socially acceptable notions (high school science as a normative model for for educated discourse and inquiry). The problem with this method is that it uses crude methods to express platitudes, so that it is neither daring, nor funny.
Further study is required.
At work some of the RF guys sacrifice a chicken, doesn't hurt anything (except the chicken).
You're right though, they do tend to get upset if you try and explain that there is some science behind what they think is voodoo.
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