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24.5.101.15
In Reply to: RE: More Room Treatment Questions from other post last week- Long posted by Vinyljunkie100 on November 12, 2007 at 08:54:07
If you had a way to build something like bookshelves for your vinyl, and then angled each side of the shelves in about 15 degress, you would have a nice amount of diffusion behind you. Think in terms of four units, two on each side towed in like speakers.
Follow Ups:
That will change the angle of reflection which may be beneficial, but it won't provide diffusion. Diffusion disperses the reflected sound energy over a wider angle than a simple reflection. Angling surfaces doesn't disperse the reflected sound energy over a wider area, just redirects it in a different direction but with the same amount of dispersion.
Using an angled surface at an early reflection point can assist in redirecting the sound that would otherwise have been the first reflection and that can be a quite useful thing to do.
David Aiken
I based my comments on the work Rives Audio does -- here is what they claim (about putting an angled bookcase in the back of the room):
Bookcases can be real assets. They can act both as diffussors and absorbers. However, the original location of this bookshelf was probably only acting as an absorber, and not a very effective one at that. By adding an additional bookshelf and placing them behind the listener we are able to get the full benefits of the bookshelf. This will also reduce the effects of the modes related to the length of the room, although they won't be very effective on the longer wavelengths.
are great diffusers and sound absorbers. I placed mine behind my listening position so that they are not quite parallel to the walls, and do not stuff the racks completly full, leaving a small amount of gap here and there. This will ack as diffusers and works quite well. I had record racks on one side wall and my equipemnt racks (three of them on the other side wall). This sort of balanced the room from left to right.
Stu
My first experience of the value of books in a listening room was, strangely, when we were packing to move from our previous home. There had been no books in the living room where the system was. The system was one of the last things to be packed and I found myself towards the end of the packing process with a huge stack of cartons packed with books sitting in the centre of the dining room end of the combined living/dining space. The system sounded the best I'd ever heard it at that stage and it was all due to absorption. That's simply because the books were all packed in stacked boxes with the lids closed so all that was being presented to the room was the bare, even surfaces of a large stack of packing boxes. There was nothing exposed that could provide a diffusive surface.
When we unpacked in the new house, I made sure that a lot of the books went into the dedicated listening room: 4 metres length of 2 metre high bookcases.
Given that most of the books aren't the full height of the shelf space, there's still a good 5 square metres of exposed book spines in that space, plus the exposed top edges of the books as well. I've never felt that there was all that much diffusion from them, even given the differences in sizes, but the absorption is quite beneficial. One thing I have found is that there is a simple way to increase the absorption benefit. I have a tendency, like most people, to push the books in the shelves back against the actual wall or the back wall of the bookcase if it has one. Pulling the books forward and leaving a space between the opening edge of the book and the wall/bookcase surface behind the book exposes another absorptive surface equal in area to the book spines showing from the front. That edge may even be a little more absorptive than the spines of the books. I use an absorbing panel in front of the bookcase at the early reflection point because I actually need a lot of absorption there but playing with having the books pushed back or pulled forward in the other areas of the bookcase allows me to vary the amount of absorption on that wall.
The main reason that I tend to play down the diffusion angle in my comments about books as a useful and non obvious room treatment is simply that an even area of spines of similarly sized books isn't uneven enough to really generate all that much in the way of diffusion and it's not easy to stagger spines randomly enough to generate a useful amount of really random diffusion. You will certainly get some diffusion but I personally think that books provide a much bigger benefit as absorbers than they do as diffusors. That's 'gut feel' based on my experience and I've never tried to measure the amount of absorption or diffusion that the bookcases in my room provide.
Angling the bookcase, however, shouldn't change the amount of diffusion provided. It will change the angle that the bookcase surfaces and book surfaces reflect sound in because it changes the angle of incidence of the sound falling on them. If there is the same amount of books in the bookcases and they're located in the same positions within the bookcase, however, the amount of diffusion generated should stay the same, it will just be projected in a different direction. As I said in my previous post, changing the direction that the sound reflects at can be quite useful in itself.
It will indirectly lead to greater diffusion if it redirects sound that would otherwise reach the ears as a first reflection. That sound will now reach the ears some time later, after having been directed at least once more and usually a few times more. That delay in arrival time ensures that that sound has time to propogate over a much wider area and that increases the overall diffuseness of the reverberant field to a degree that depends on the length of the added delay in arrival time. It's certainly not going to be as effective as a device designed specifically to provide diffusion but it will help.
David Aiken
David, I completely agree with your assessment. I pull the books away from the wall and stagger them in the case. The reason for angling does just what you say, which is to scatter or diffuse the sound. I can't imagine that it works as well as, say an RPG bad panel, but I want my listening room to be inviting to me and my guests and I often read when I am listening. I would be even happier to have 1000 LPs back there (just because I have to start a collection). My thought was the original post might benefit from his vinyl staying the room vs. moving it out.
Thanks for suggestion though.
Records are gone and it sounds better.
I just got finished (minus cloth I need to prder) with my 2 wall panels tonight. Only listened for a minute, but sounded nice. No reflection, but besides that, it's like thay are not even there (with eyes closed of course). Wife hated burlap, but was happy with choices of FR-701 or whatever it's called.
"My thought was the original post might benefit from his vinyl staying the room vs. moving it out."
Hmmmmmmmm…
Mixed feelings. Acoustics may benefit but waistline could probably use the exercise of walking to the other room :-)
David Aiken
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