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66.91.9.2
Just wondering the procedure used by others freezing copied media. I usually make a copy of the original with EAC and then stick that in the fridge and then freezer after a day. I've been thinking about it and maybe I should be freezing the blank media then burning.
In the last round of freezing, I made three copies. I 'treated' two by freezing and left one as the control. I decided to spray paint the label side of one of the copies black. Two coats and one coat of clear. First, I played the original. Second was the untreated copy. The copy was a little edgier than the original. Third, I tried the treated cd and the first thing you realize is that it sounds as though you turned up the volume two clicks. Edginess is less than the original but still present to a small degree. Midrange is more coherent and inner detail is more evident. The treated black cd was next. I was a bit surprised that the music played softer than the other frozen cd. In fact, the sound was more akin to my vinyl collection. I heard more wood in the instruments, more weight in vocals, more analog all around. It was so impressive that I'm considering the black Memorex cdrs from cryoparts at $3 per. Anyone with any experience with these? This was not a formal experiment or anything. Just reporting what sounds good to my ear.
Follow Ups:
I use the Belt method. I think I posted about it some time ago. I've tried freezing them three times instead of twice, but it doesn't make enough difference to me. Don't know about freezing prior to burning, once I found that freezing after burning worked, I just stuck with it. It's already a PITA anyway, LOL.
__________________
I guess I'm missing something here.
I has always been my understanding that digital music is in the binary format. Another words a series of 1's and 0's that when combined a certain way result in a certain signal being produced.
NOW how on earth can freezing these 1's and 0's change them after all if they are not a 1 or a 0 they will not be read by the device!
I just want someone to explain how this could make any difference. I don't want to hear "OH but it was like a veil was removed from the music". I just want some possible explanation for a real effect.
> > > "NOW how on earth can freezing these 1's and 0's change them after all if they are not a 1 or a 0 they will not be read by the device! I just want someone to explain how this could make any difference. I don't want to hear "OH but it was like a veil was removed from the music". I just want some possible explanation for a real effect.
Quote from Kmarikos:-
> > > "I understand your skepticism. I had that mentality before I decided this was easy enough to try out for myself. For my system and ears, it does make a difference. Try it out and you might be pleasantly surprised." < < <
************
Why don't you just experiment for yourself Mark W - just as Kmarikos did and has suggested you do ?
If/when you hear any difference yourself, then YOU can begin to work out an explanation for yourself.
> > > "OK I'll put a CD in the freezer for what a night? And how will I be able to switch back and forth between froze and not froze to hear the diff. Since there is no way your brain can accurately remember sound well enough to hear the microscopic difference this might if at all make." < < <
Obviously, as you say, you won't be able to go back to square one after carrying out the freezing treatment. So, you do the experiment a different way. If you do not have two identical CDs so that you can keep one unfrozen as a control, then you try something different.
Everyone has a CD (or even more than one CD !) which they have never liked the sound of - and which they therefore never play. Even though they originally bought it because they liked the composer or liked the artist or liked that particular music, they have been disappointed in the sound of it ever since and therefore never play it.
More often than not, the explanation put forward as to why it did not sound good is because of 'poor recording', or 'poor mixing', or 'close miking of instruments' etc.
Find the CD. Listen to it and confirm that you still do not like the sound of it then put it through the freezing/slow defrost process then listen to it again.
If you DO hear an improvement in the sound, if you DO now enjoy it more, then the original explanations of 'poor recording', 'poor mixing', 'close miking of instruments' no longer hold water - which now means that other explanations have now to be found as to why the sound of the CD was not liked before but the CD can be listened to with much more pleasure now !!!
This is a technique which is FREE. This is not something which you are being asked to pay money for without being able to try it first. This is not medicine or pills which you have to physically ingest and therefore have to rely on substantial trials having been carried out by the pharmaceutical companies. This is something simple, easy, and free and yet, it seems, causes such a huge amount of soulsearching and argument amongst the audio fraternity.
I find it surprising how some people are not prepared to try simple experiments for themselves. In my day Professors 'rapped the knuckles' of students who wanted to know the answers before they did the experiments for themselves !!
Using a domestic deep freezer is certainly a technique which people can try for themselves and then decide whether they wish to go further with such as cryogenic treatments.
Robert Harley may have been as perplexed as you Mark W how 'freezing' CDs could have an effect on the digital information but at least he was prepared to investigate, for himself, the freezing of CDs. To quote from his October 1990 article in Stereophile :-
> > > "My fascination with CD tweaks stems not from their intrinsic abilities to improve CD sound as much as it comes from the realization that if ANY tweak has even the SLIGHTEST audible effect, conventional digital audio theory is turned upside down. More important, however, the widespread acceptance and belief in CD tweaks may make skeptical engineers LISTEN for themselves, perhaps sparking an investigation into why they work......... Furthermore, I see CD tweaks as a Rosetta Stone to an audio engineering establishment that dismisses the possibility that freezing a CD, or painting it black, or putting green paint around the edge or making it from a different material, could affect its sound. Because these treatments are considered the epitome of audiophile lunacy and because they are readily audible, some measurement-orientated scientists may, if they listen for themselves, realize that audiophiles are not always the demented mystics they are often accused of being." < < <
Regards,
May Belt.
s
There are analog and optical processes involved in reading a CD, it's not just bits somehow magically transferring from the disc to the DAC. And IME, freezing them does reveal more detail, but primarily it makes them sound less stressed and livelier. Don't ask me how it works, I don't know. Removing the mold compound on the discs, i.e., washing them, will reveal a bit more detail also.
__________________
Howdy
Playing the devil's advocate:
If it were just as simple as 1s and 0s then there would be no differences between various transports or between digital cables. The difference is that besides the exact 1s and 0s the timing of them (i.e. jitter) also makes a difference.
Now as to how (shallow) freezing of CDs makes any difference I have no idea. I believe some of my friends that cryo treating CDs makes an audible difference, but once again I wouldn't hazard a guess as to the mechanism.
Let's just say I'm skeptical of home freezing of CDs.
-Ted
In metal working, cryogenics seems to partially anneal the metal work, tempering the metal. I seem to recall reading that Scandinavian sword smiths would toss finished blades in the winter snow banks and retrieve them after the spring thaws, and that process made for tougher blades, less apt to break when used.
Some thing similar may be happening here with the plastic substrate, because certainly the binary code is not affected. In holding up a disc to the light, I can see moire patterns which seem to be affected by the freezing, in that I see less of them after freezing. Since Cd's are made by heat pressing, there may be ( I am speculating here) a change in the stresses contained with in the disc itself. Considering the size of the binary code, it wouldn't take much to affect the playback.
But freezing a disc, CD or DVD, defintely does have benefits. I haven't tried LP's but I've been told that freezing them also helps, too (I know of a couple of individuals who have done so).
While tweaking an analog system (vinyl) is more intuitive because it is a more mechanical interface, digital technology has more subtle effects.
I firmly believe that the spin motors of the CD transport emit EMI pulses which can affect the laser head data flow. Proof is obtained by placing a large ferrite over the spin motor and hearing a noticeable increase in detail. Perhaps simply not having to use the error correction circuit as much may be the chief cause of the benefit.
I routinely add a bit of ferrofluid to my focus motor assemblies ( not recommended if you aren't sure of what you are doing!). The increase in dynamics and information retrieval is noticeable, and I believe it is simply a matter of making the focus motor 'faster' in its reaction to a slightly warped or off center disc.
Food for thought, at any rate, and as any tweak, YMMV.
Stu
Got a private email from a person involved in the cryogenic business, and he confirms that the plastic substrate is being affected. The claim is that the freezing indeed reduces residual stresses in the disc and reduces bi refringence, a fancy word for the laser light reflected does so without being being affected by those stress patterns which can cause a bit of distortion to the beam. That would explain why the Moire patterns under strong light also appear different. Those are those funny 'wrinkles' you can see in things like large sheet glass windows.
He also points out that stress relieving the plastic reduces the 'Q' of the resonance of the disc itself.
FWIW, of course YMMV.
Stu
Howdy
All of this I expected with respect to cryoing, but how home freezing has any similar effects I'm quite skeptical about. I have to wonder if home freezing is more an issue of changing the static charges, etc. like the "demagnetizers" as I don't believe that it changes anything physical about the discs.
-Ted
and, of course, I have no explanation.
However, I have burned several copies of discs and simply used the copies as my experimental base. In relation to the unfrozen discs, the frozen copies seem to retain their sonic' attributes', even when I use them as demo discs (in other words, on a daily basis, often having them on repeat in order to break in various pieces of gear). That would dispense the static charge idea, as I would believe a static charge would simply build up again and not be very permanent.
Cryogenic facilities where I live, are available only through the university labs and a few military sites, and not open to the public. This triggered my investigation with a home freezer (later with a surplus lab speciment freezer).
I first started with a procedure described to me by an airline mechanic. After a specified numbers of landings, the axles of the Boeing 737 landing gear are removed and cryogenically treated. Lacking the proper facilities, they simply place the axles in a huge Igloo cooler, packing the axles with dry ice. After the the cooler is packed, they pour in liquid nitrogen, and then seal the container with duct tape. He told me that they leave the cooler sealed for about a week allowing it to slowly return to room temperature.
I actually tried this technique myself, using smaller coolers of course. Note, if you should try this , be very cautious as liquid nitrogen expands to something like a 1000 times its initial volume. It can displace oxygen and some statistics show that at least one person dies a year from being overcome from asphyxia. Not recommended in a small enclosed room!
The truth was that lugging around a Dewar flask was not much fun, although the cost was relatively cheap. I got lazy and simply froze the discs, first with dry ice, where I could still hear the effect, and later with a refrigerator where the effect was still audible. Treating other 'bits' seemed to also help too, BTW.
Incidentally, the CD demagnetizers have a much more transient effect. It works for only one play. Stopping a disc in mid song, then repeating that track will show that the sound changes roughly at the point of stopping the disc. That would indicate that the disc change is correlated to the laser mechanism in some way (heat from the laser, perhaps?).
I got a chance to play with a Nespa, the light treatment of a disc. That works very well too, but, curiously, demagnetizing a disc treated with the Nespa seems to reverse the Nespa treatment.
Like you, I believe nothing really changes in respect to the bits of code stamped onto the disc. I believe the plastic substrate is being affected, and, being a relatively soft and yielding material, it can respond to much 'weaker' forces.
Of course, YMMV,
Stu
Unclestu, I see you are, yet again, coming up against the old, conventional, "Oh, how can freezing a CD change the sound of that CD when the information is digits, 1s and 0s ?"
I agree that the subject heading started out as "Freezing CDs/DVDs" but, surely, by now, people are aware that 'the effect of freezing extends much further out than merely freezing CDs' - which then takes the subject away from being purely about 1s and 0s ?
We discovered the benefits of the freezing technique long before we owned a CD player or any CDs !!
In the early 1980s, we were investigating the sound of different metals when used as a conductor - by listening to different bare metals. We decided to try an additional experiment, we baked all the different bare metals in the gas oven (as reported by Martin Colloms in his 1984 article "Cable Controversy" - 23 years ago !!). After baking, we allowed the metals to return to room temperature very, very slowly. On listening to all the individual bare metals again, we found the sound from all of them to be much improved but, as soon as Peter applied any plastic insulation around the bare metals, the sound was worse - what could be described as 'harsh, shouty, aggressive'. Peter knew that he could not bake the plastic insulation material in the gas oven so he decided to try the opposite - he decided to freeze the plastic insulation materials in our domestic deep freezer and, after freezing, allowed the plastic materials to return to room temperature very, very slowly. After doing this, applying the plastic insulation around the bare metals did not have as great an adverse effect on the sound as they had previously - the sound was now much less harsh and aggressive - more open and coherent with better resolution.
So, by the time we eventually acquired a CD player and some CDs and were disappointed in the sound of the CDs - describing the sound as 'harsh, shouty and aggressive', we already knew what technique to try - we put the CDs through the freezing/slow defrost procedure to beneficial effect !!
This simple 'freezing/slow defrost' technique was described to our customers (and some UK journalists) way back during the 1980s and they reported similar success.
Then we read Robert Harley's 1990 article on freezing - particularly the sentence
"In addition to CDs and LPs, the process has been used on Laser-vision-format video discs, speaker cable, interconnects, integrated circuits and musical instruments."
We realised that here was someone else (Ed Meitner of Canada) who had, completely independently, discovered exactly the effect we had discovered - although Ed Meitner had discovered the same effect by using cryogenic temperatures.
Robert Harley's article was written in 1990 - 17 years ago !!
It was written about Ed Meitner's discoveries, so that means that Ed Meitner had been making HIS discoveries over 20 years ago, and we had been making our discoveries over 25 years ago. All this was then followed by such as the New York Times 1999 article on freezing musical instruments (which we and many of our customers had also been doing - freezing such as headphones, microphones and the strings of musical instruments)
Just how long does it take for people to realise that 'there is something going on' which needs investigating, explaining and not just dismissing out of hand ?
Quote from Unclestu
> > > "But freezing a disc, CD or DVD, defintely does have benefits. I haven't tried LP's but I've been told that freezing them also helps, too (I know of a couple of individuals who have done so). Cryogenic facilities where I live, are available only through the university labs and a few military sites, and not open to the public. This triggered my investigation with a home freezer (later with a surplus lab speciment freezer)." < < <
How is it that such as Unclestu has been willing to try the 'freezing' experiment using a home freezer but (it would appear) Ted Smith has not ? rlw suggests that if people try the experiment but cannot hear any changes in the sound and report such things, that they should "Be prepared, however, to get jumped on if you report no difference."
Why, rlw, would anyone saying that they had tried the (freezing) experiment for themselves but could not hear any improvement be 'jumped on' ? Surely if they cannot hear any changes in the sound, then they cannot hear any changes - but at least they would have tried. Surely they would only be challenged re their attitude if they said that they WOULD NOT try the experiment and dismissed it out of hand because they could not understand how it could possibly work - in the face of many others' experiences - in the face of it working successfully for many others.
Mark W (who claims to be a music lover but who appears not to have already tried the simple freezing technique) comments instead "in fact i was thinking of having my wife join and write an exactly opposite review of the results just to watch it all happen. But I thinking just trying to keep the beer from blowing out my nose while I read some of this BULL**IT is fun enough."
Why don't you try the freezing experiment for yourself Mark W - then you would be able to provide an answer to your own question "Now what I really want to know is if I leave one of these magic disks in my pickup and it gets hot say 130 degrees will the veil return to the music?"
Then Mark W, if you still do not hear any changes to the sound after trying the freezing technique it would still not instigate a reaction from me (as suggested by rlw of 'jumping on you') but, instead, my reaction to such a sentence as
"i was thinking of having my wife join and write an exactly opposite review of the results just to watch it all happen. But I thinking just trying to keep the beer from blowing out my nose while I read some of this BULL**IT is fun enough."
would be of utter amazement at such an immature sentence from someone who calls himself a "music lover".
A mature music lover's reaction, surely, would not be to think of silly games to play on audio discussion groups but to ask the question "If freezing things such as wires, cables, integrated circuits, printed circuit boards, components etc can give the improvements in the sound which people are describing, then why am I being asked to pay 5,000 dollars/pounds, 10,000 dollars/pounds, 20,000 dollars/pounds for new, UNFROZEN, CD players, amplifiers, speaker systems etc ?"
Kmarikos initial posting was sensible and intelligent and informative, as was his later sentence :-
"I had that mentality (scepticism) before I decided this was easy enough to try out for myself. For my system and ears, it does make a difference. Try it out and you might be pleasantly surprised."
only (unfortunately) to be met by some (usual) dismissive responses - even after others had added their own positive experiences.
Regards,
May Belt.
Your quite right I never should have gotten into this silly discussion. I don't believe in ghosts (yet the green people on TV say they hear see feel them all the time) I never said I was a music lover. My media of choice is vinyl I own over 2000 LP's and maybe 50-60 CD's I own twice as many Cassettes as CD's.
I'm one of those silly people who need some form of proof some tangible repeatable example. Not the rantings of a number of guys who think they can hear the difference between one variety of wood block their CDP is sitting on compared to another
BUT I will give you this since the whole process for KNOWING if I can hear a difference between frozen music and raw is so easy here is what I'll do.
I'll try it. And I'll write a post detailing the whole thing.
A refreshingly polite reply. I thank you. It is appreciated.
Regarding my reference to you as a 'music lover'. If you click on your name at the top of your postings, it will reveal your details which are "Music Lover/Audiophile". THAT is where I got my information from. So, if YOU did not provide those details, then someone did.
Just as a general reply to your
> > > "I'm one of those silly people who need some form of proof some tangible repeatable example. Not the rantings of a number of guys who think they can hear the difference between one variety of wood block their CDP is sitting on compared to another" < < <
I personally am aware that there are a multitude of things which affect the 'sound' so I already know not to dismiss (outright) other people's experiences. But, instead of asking you the (usual) question "Whose experiences are YOU going to chose to believe?" I will turn the question on it's head and instead ask "Whose experiences are YOU going to dismiss ?"
Such as John Atkinson's ? Where he states that he uses such as the Myrtle Wood Blocks under his equipment because they give him an improvement in the sound of that equipment ? But, where he goes on to say that "he does not know or understand why or how".
Ditto a multitude of other reportings of other 'tweaks' by various audio editors and journalists.
If you personally are not able to try anything and everything and hear things (or not hear them) for yourself, then at some point you are going to have to come to some decision as to who to believe - or who to dismiss !! They can't ALL be wrong - different people can hear different things, yes, but they can't ALL be under the influence of 'suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, audio faith healing, or effective marketing' !! Especially people who are regarded as 'professional in audio'. Surely no one (editor, journalist or manufacturer) would deliberately expose themselves to ridicule by claiming that they could hear this or hear that changing the sound if they did not genuinely 'hear' the sound changing.
This is the point where you should be at. Because they are all telling you that there is 'something going on which affects sound' which everyone is struggling (in their own way) to try to understand.
Regards,
May Belt.
Further to my earlier reply.
What we (the ones who can hear the effectiveness of the freezing technique) are trying to tell you (and others) is that it is not the 1s and 0s which are being affected. Because you can get similar beneficial results by freezing so many other things which are nothing to do with digital information (1s and 0s).
You say you have more audio cassettes than CDs. Then why don't you try the freezing technique with an audio cassette ? I am sure you will have, tucked away somewhere, an audio cassette you do not like the sound of - which you have been disappointed with ever since you bought it. Dig it out, listen to it and confirm that you still do not like the sound of it, then put it through the freezing/slow defrost procedure - then listen to it again and see if you can listen to it with more pleasure.
Regards,
May Belt.
I have not tried freezing a CD yet, but I am sure I will sooner or later (I am a tweak-a-holic)...lol
In your post you mentioned, "placing a large ferrite over the spin motor and hearing a noticeable increase in detail". This intrigues me. I am assuming this would work on a CD or DVD transport also right? When you say "large ferrite" are you referring to a cable ferrite clamp type of ferrite? Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you.
Best Regards,
Chris
I found a surplus bunch of unmagnetized speaker magnets, roughly
a one inch i.d. and a 3 inch o.d. You could use large steel washers or a dumb bell weight also (if it's iron), centering it over the spin motor. Some have claimed that it is the weight dampening the chassis, but it also works under the chassis, too.
And yes, it works on both CD and DVD transports.
Stu
What is the purpose of the tweak? Is it the magnetism of the metal (steel washers, dumbell, etc) that is interacting with the spin motor that is improving the drive's performance or?
Thanks,
Chris
magnetism would prefer to travel through any ferrous object: ferrites, steel washers, etc. In doing so, those objects will absorb the magnetic field produced by the motor's operation and thereby shrink the size of that field.
A VPI 'Magic Brick" is not ideal for this purpose because the field generated by a motor is toroidal in shape (donut shaped). You need that hole in the middle to allow the magnetism to drop through in order to complete the magnetic path.
I believe a reduction in the size of the EMF field has a direct correlation to a reduction in its effects on nearby circuits, including the laser readout heads.
Stu
Ok, next week when my system settles in from all the power and speaker tweaks I have recently done, I will experiment with placing ferrites, steel washers, etc. above the spin motor of the Transport. I just purchased a strong table top degausser, will try demagnetizing the steel first also and see what happens.
Thanks for the info!
Chris
I just had one of those moments where I caught a glimpse of the depth of my ignorance. Not good, need more coffee. What sort of motors do CD players use? Yes, I've seen them and they be metal and electric, but upon what principle do they operate? Are they steppers, synchronous etc. I know virtually nothing about electrical machinery and thought it was good that I didn't have to take the class, now I'm not so sure. I know they constantly change their speed to keep the mean data rate constant so I suppose they could even be DC motors relying on the feedback loop.
Dispel the darkness oh master tweaker...
Rick
Hey! I ain't no master tweaker, let's get that fact clear. I have, ah, more than few dead chassis'lying about as proof of experiments gone awry, and evidence of foolhardy experimentation (if you can politely call it that!).
The motors are DC motors, though. Typically, at the most, three pole versions, although on the older and more expensive transports I have seen four pole motors. I haven't really traced the circuit and the IC's used but I do believe it is as you surmise, a servo feedback system. Of course, I haven't ripped apart any of those extremely pricey players.
Stu
I'm sorry to inform you that having dead carcasses lying about from failed tweaks, and yet tweaking onward is a certain sign of a master tweaker. Other diagnostic tendencies have also been noted. There is no escaping it...
Rick
a tweaker, maybe, but certainly not a master of tweaking! More like a paranoid one, if anything.
Thanks, anyway, though...
8^)
Stu
s
d
c
Howdy
I understand the exact mapping of audio to bits on a CD, I understand the analog representation of said bits, I understand many of the possible ways that translating back from the analog bits to digital can introduce jitter and I understand some of the ways that jitter affects the systems that follow, including how jitter can affect the DAC.
I don't understand why you never say what you mean and why you like to play word games. You often misquote me, try to put words in my mouth, etc. Anyway, have fun, I'll probably not answer any response from you on this topic...
-Ted
...your cryptic, "They are still 1s and 0s, just not the ones you expect", and all I get is, "I don't understand why you never say what you mean and why you like to play word games." Geez Luiz! I asked a simple question...
And then, "You often misquote me." I beg your pardon! Mostly I just cut & paste.
Why are you so angry at me?
clark
Stu
I understand your skepticism. I had that mentality before I decided this was easy enough to try out for myself. For my system and ears, it does make a difference. Try it out and you might be pleasantly surprised.
Oh now your just being funny!
OK I'll put a CD in the freezer for what a night?
And how will I be able to switch back and forth between froze and not froze to hear the diff. Since there is no way your brain can accurately remember sound well enough to hear the microscopic difference this might if at all make.
Hmm now to make two copies of something and shove one in the freezer
Be prepared, however, to get jumped on if you report no difference. It will be because your ears are bad, you don't know *how* to listen, your "attitude", or your system isn't resolving enough. However, if you do hear a differnce, you'll be wholeheartedly welcomed into the club, insted of being hit over the head with it...
-RW-
RW I was going to say exactly the same thing you just did in fact i was thinking of having my wife join and write an exactly opposite review of the results just to watch it all happen. But I thinking just trying to keep the beer from blowing out my nose while I read some of this BULL**IT is fun enough.
Now what I really want to know is if I leave one of these magic disks in my pickup and it gets hot say 130 degrees will the veil return to the music?
Yes, you should make two copies and freeze one. Put the cd in the fridge for about half a day before putting in the freezer. Leave it in for a day. Wrap in a towel and stick it in the fridge for a while. Take it out and let it gradually get to room temp. Try it and post your impressions.
Hey Stu,
I'm guessing the bad 'black' dielectric, insulation, or zip-ties doesn't apply to cdrs. ;) It's reassuring that you agree with the black cdrs.
BTW I looked in my Quicksilver preamp and all the hookup wires (except for the grounds) are multicolored, no black.
Quint,
I'm going to try some of those gold cds since they are about $2 cheaper than the cryoed black ones. Hopefully, I have similar results as you experienced.
The Genesis speaker website has a an article recounting one of the Principle's experimentation with black CD's.
I like them myself, and while hearing what you hear, I do not notice any lessening of volume. I buy them in bulk from some on line source. Incidentally if you are using an SACD/CD player try the red tinted ones. they are very good.
Stu
I’m currently freezing my blank media—generally a day in the freezer suffices. I don’t freeze them after I burn, as it’s an added hassle, and I just want to get down to listening to music.
I used to freeze a lot of my originals, but I don’t any longer, as the benefit was pretty subtle and IMHO not worth the effort.
I also used to use black CD-Rs—I bought them from George Louis, of Reality Check fame—but I ultimately went to MAM-A gold archival CD-Rs because they sounded a bit better, and I couldn’t be happier. They’re all I use now.
BTW, the “analog” effect you report with black CD-Rs is exactly the phenomena I notice through burning. It’s as if some edginess has been removed. In addition, IME dimensionality and texture improve greatly, resolution a little less but still noticeable.
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