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In Reply to: RE: it's not about measured performance ... posted by deathtube 667 on January 25, 2022 at 04:17:50
and what you don't seem willing to grasp is that their niche is that of effects boxes, and there are lots more people who want The Real Thing instead of HD-modified dreck.
It would not matter at all if less people preferred The Real Thing; effects boxes like ss/denise builds are second rate UNLESS that is what you want. In that case, it is easy to agree with you that denise builds the best of 'em.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Follow Ups:
"and what you don't seem willing to grasp is that their niche is that of effects boxes, and there are lots more people who want The Real Thing instead of HD-modified dreck."
It would not matter at all if less people preferred The Real Thing; effects boxes like ss/denise builds are second rate UNLESS that is what you want. In that case, it is easy to agree with you that denise builds the best of 'em.
cheers,
Douglas
Pak's comments demonstrate a complete lack understanding to the "concepts" DF and the other MLP "master builders" have so generously gifted AA Tube DIY over the last decade plus.
There is no hope for you, Pak.
You have been consigned to a life of "low to mid-fi" outcomes at best.
DT667
"fi" means fidelity. Douglas' point was that Dennis' amps don't do fidelity, they do "fun, fun happy sound" that is not true to the input signal.You can't call that fidelity. It might be very fun to listen to but it's not Hi-Fi. Hi-Fi means a high degree of fidelity to the input signal and Dennis' amps don't do that. They can't do that for obvious reasons.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 01/26/22
"fi" means fidelity. Douglas' point was that Dennis' amps don't do fidelity, they do "fun, fun happy sound" that is not true to the input signal.
You can't call that fidelity. It might be very fun to listen to but it's not Hi-Fi. Hi-Fi means a high degree of fidelity to the input signal and Dennis' amps don't do that. They can't do that for obvious reasons."
Only an "elite" few in our hobby will EVER match the accomplishments of DF and his SS brand. It is for the individual who wants to be at the forefront of this hobby - an "alpha audiophile" or person who gravitates toward "best in class" products.
A "Tube DIY" audio forum filled with "budget builders" will never be able to the fathom the "Tao of Fraker" or Gestalt of JDM", that level of understanding will not happen here.
DT667
You are living in a dream world. What you say about DF and JDM is what they want you to believe but it is not true.
If you want someone you can hold up as "enlightened" about tube audio you should study Lynn Olson, Gary Pimm and Gary Dahl. Those guys are cutting edge.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"You are living in a dream world."
DF/JDM and the MLP are living the dream.
They have "inspired a shared vision" and galvanized a new generation of SE tube amp builders from all parts of the globe.
From cutting edge design and construction "concepts" never before seen or heard in SE tube audio per JDM, to dominating listening rooms in the trade show era and beyond, these men are the true innovators in the hobby.
Why critics waste so much energy trying to tear down "icons" of our great hobby is not understandable but more than likely a product of long-term mental health issues currently unresolved.
DT667
"They have "inspired a shared vision" and galvanized a new generation of SE tube amp builders from all parts of the globe"
That is not true. Most people have never even heard of them.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
"That is not true. Most people have never even heard of them."
You are already aware of JDM's new groundbreaking SE 6005 project.
There are several individuals from AA Tube DIY who have posted trolling comments on that website in an attempt to undermine JDM's efforts but have ultimately failed to do so.
The great minds of the MLP will rise to the top of the SE tube amp world and nothing can stop them or their devoted followers.
DT667
"new groundbreaking"
He's been banned.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
followers are not alpha's. They are followers...and we have seen all too clearly that it is remarkably easy to lead people around by the nose by repeating things often enough and loudly enough.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
followers are not alpha's. They are followers...and we have seen all too clearly that it is remarkably easy to lead people around by the nose by repeating things often enough and loudly enough.
JDM is the "alpha" leading a group of builders under his command.
He is working tirelessly to expand the boundaries of what is possible with SE tube amplifiers.
People who understand "LOW DCR SE tube amplifiers" will be playing attention.
Others, the haters and audio forum trolls, will be left behind.
The choice is yours: a brave new world or status quo.
DT667
"JDM is the "alpha" leading a group of builders under his command."
He's been banned.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
To fall on the sword of conviction is a noble end.Loyal to his mentors and the cause.
May he rest knowing the effort was appreciated.
DT667
Edits: 01/28/22
1/2 of what you write is purposely trolling. You like the needling. Not sure why people engage you as much as they do. You are like bad teeth...-...- if ignored long enough, they are sure to go away.
"1/2 of what you write is purposely trolling. You like the needling. Not sure why people engage you as much as they do. You are like bad teeth...-...- if ignored long enough, they are sure to go away."
DT667 started a thread about AES PT-31 OPT's, not one mention of DF/SS/MLP in the initial post.
GEO seems to want to discuss some of DF's former customers selling their SS products online.
Others contribute pointless off topic comments as well.
Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black in this case.
DT667
This is not that thread. Just saying.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Just pointing out paying customers moving on and taking a bath while doing so, unless Dennis sells them out the back door? Was SS direct to consumer or did Dennis have a dealer network?
Edits: 01/29/22
Serious Stereo has no dealer network.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Thanks.
"Just pointing out paying customers moving on and taking a bath while doing so, unless Dennis sells them out the back door? Was SS direct to consumer or did Dennis have a dealer network?"
You will need to ask DF those questions about SS sales or business practices.
We can see tube amps of various quality for sale at any given time online.
And for a wide variety of reasons.
Nothing unusual about it.
To your earlier point, DT667 does "needle" other forum participants for various reasons. But so do you and many others on AA forums.
The hobby is supposed to be a fun escape from reality and not to be taken too seriously.
If you feel stressed by what you are reading, then don't open the posts or take a break from internet forums and chill out.
DT667
Now that you bring it up, nobody who owns an amp that really is as good as you claim ever sells 'em. I am sorry that we had to point out the flaw in your claims. Have a good day Sir!
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Tell you what, as soon as I see him write something that makes sense, and gives the detailed instructions to build one of his creations, I'll build one to print.If I like it, I will never do anything but encourage others. If I don't, you shall cease posting.
so then, mr. omega... :)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Edits: 01/27/22
"Tell you what, as soon as I see him write something that makes sense, and gives the detailed instructions to build one of his creations, I'll build one to print."
"If I like it, I will never do anything but encourage others. If I don't, you shall cease posting."
so then, mr. omega... :)
Pak, you would need to connect with JDM before moving forward, if you are sincere about building a SE tube amp under his direction.
There are a lot of custom magnetics used in his new SE 6005 project and that might not be available to you.
Good luck moving ahead, sir.
DT667
Hi! Jeff likes the 6005 tube as I do.A 6005 amp isn't practical to sell to
anyone, a good one costs as much to build
as any other SE, but can't power most things.Jeff is different-- he just wants to build
things that I highlight in our discussions.It's been about 4 years since I got him
converted to Altec A7-- 500, or 800 8's.This old movie theatre speaker is a rare
combo of great transducers, and a bass bin
that isn't bass reflex, nor is it MLTL, or
anything else. It's for a movie theatre.Clarity is everything in a movie house.
Bass response, while accentuated by today's
"engineers", is really a cult throwback to
the car-audio of a few years ago, and the sick
druggies who drive them. In that world, bass
response is designed to induce bowel movements, and
nothing else of value.Movie theatres had to have a system where the
viewer got caught up in the action and forgot all
about audio and video. The speaker(s) was designed
to do just that, so a combo of PART bass reflex and PART
free-air woofer-loading was devised by Jim Lansing
for MGM-- MGM hated Western Electric gear with a
vengeance. Jim was hired to get the W.E. JUNK out of
all of their movie theatres. ALTEC was born.Jeff, reluctantly, finally got into Altec speakers
after almost 12 years of me trying to get him to do it.
He was hung-up on Robert Fulton.Of course, you hear clean, clear detail with Altec
speakers. I began designing amps for Jeff, and he
took those ideas to the forums.The 6005 tube, while excellent, is no match for larger
tubes such as the 2A3, but due to closer element-spacing,
it is a thrill to listen to-- it easily does everything
in music.
I have to beat Jeff over the head all the time to get him
to use vacuum tubes which DO NOT have soldered-on pins,
all of which are anti-clean, with only "so-so" detailed
response.The 6005
is, of course, one of the GOOD tubes-- with direct pins
for the tube socket.I know how to build a (3) tube 6005 output stage, and
still keep it clean and coherent. This requires a
balancing act to keep all 3 tubes acting in the same
manner, when we know that no 2 tubes are ever alike--
not in any way, and not by any manufacturer.This means skewed output phases unless you know how
to do it. I talked Jeff into building one, and designed
it over the phone. As usual, Jeff went right to the forums
with it-- before it is even built. He thinks that if do it,
it has to work.Anyhow, it is designed to man-handle the A7-500-8 woofer.
All woofers like current-- the faster it is delivered, the
better. It took me a week to get anybody to understand
that a 3-banger output stage can be made to work sonically.The improvement in the Altec 15" woofer's response will be
huge from the 3 tubes, partly because the output transformer
can be lower impedance primary. The larger the wire size, and
the fewer turns we have, the better. Oh, I know TRE would
be enraged by this-- he knows that THD drops as primary
impedance goes up. He's right, but I don't give a damn--
what I want is fast, clean response. Numbers are just mental
exercise-- I use them, but only when they aren't allowed to
interfere with what I want-- accurate musical expression.So, the Triple 6005 amp is born--
just like MGM, you gotta use and drive properly the right
speaker.-Dennis-
Edits: 01/28/22 01/28/22
Sounds like an interesting project, DF.
Maybe you should be the one to mentor Pak on SE tube amp build?
That is if he is "serious" about building something.
DT667
Only serious about making a bet you'd lose. Proven how and what I build since before you recognized the need to become a fanboy.
Besides, I have never seen any of your bosses say anything good about PSE so why are you holding up that strawman?
Second, the wager requires a set of instructions and a BOM. You will never get that out of low moooo. Not one that won't be disowned when the results are not worth paperwork duty, let alone listening to.
So I dare you to get one... :) I've a Nickel that sez you can't.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Pak,
Until your demeanor improves significantly, the MLP guys will never consult with you on a tube amp project.
Your interest in current MLP projects became another vehicle to project hostility at others including DT667, which is unacceptable.
Is this how you want to move forward in 2022?
Try adopting a more positive attitude.
Good evening, sir.
DT667
LMAO...
let's see, perhaps a review of history.
Some idiot says, 'this is the way to build the best amp'.
An inmate or three applies the instructions, gets a predictably poor result, and gets blamed by The Idiot for not doing it properly.
Sooooo, I am happy to be proven wrong in this hobby. If your way is better, show me...not going to waste any time or $$$$ on something that does not come with good instructions. Or as has been historically proven time and again in this particular approach, instructions that deliberately leave out 'important' pieces.
That those bits are not really important, but are instead built-in, 'you didn't do it right, so of course it sucks; you're a crappy amp builder anyway'...I have zero interest in your game, or its effects-box amps... :)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
At this moment, it will not be possible for you to create an exact copy of an MLP design team SE tube amplifier circuit for a variety of reasons.
Only a very trusted person within the "inner circle" of the MLP or its contacts can qualify for an internship with the group.
Are you ready to take the next step, Pak?
Are you ready for the MLP-level?
DT667
Looks like a step backwards to me. Several actually. What your magical, mystical, 'mlp' is about has been adequately documented as an effects box. it is obvious they've found their niche of folk who like that sort of thing.
So, I must decline your ever so magnanimous offer. Do let me know when you decide to examine a real amplifier design process...that could not care less about what colour of wire is used, or how many leads you solder onto a cheap choke.
Come on out to MI when it is safe to gather, and examine some real amps in the wild. bring yours to compare... :)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"Come on out to MI when it is safe to gather, and examine some real amps in the wild. bring yours to compare... :) "
I actually remember running my first DC 2a3 built under Jeff's guidance and comparing it to a modded Dynaco ST-70 at my place with a SMAC gathering.
I have to admit, the ST-70 was better. At least in the HF region.
I still build effects boxes - but getting out and comparing amps is a good exercise!
"I actually remember running my first DC 2a3 built under Jeff's guidance and comparing it to a modded Dynaco ST-70 at my place with a SMAC gathering."
Pak needs to make the trip to Livingston, MT and hear DF's SS gear in its most perfect setup and listening environment.
That would be the only way to understand what DF is doing.
Anything from another builder under the DF influence, likely has deviated from the original SE 7B4 DC 2A3 design and the end result will not be exactly the same.
DT667
I know that the trip will show me an effects box. You and he have both said it will. repeatedly.
As far as 6005 goes, there is one fine signal amplifier right there. Along with many other small power tubes you have never bothered to explore. 6V6GTA is another. 6CL6, 6DT5 for another. 1.2A of heater current for a tube the size of a 12AX7...effortless comes to mind.
So, happybear, you really need to get out more...really. I'll repeat the invite; would love to have you as an honoured visitor to listen to some amplifiers and speakers.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"Anything from another builder under the DF influence, likely has deviated from the original SE 7B4 DC 2A3 design and the end result will not be exactly the "
troll on brother!
Even JDM, a man at the side of DF for over a decade at RMAF, failed to replicate the SS 2A3 circuit exactly and moved on to other finals like 45, KT88 and now 6005.
Only DF can build his SE 2A3 circuit correctly.
Any other living human would probably fail to get it right!
DT667
"Any other living human would probably fail to get it right!"
That all depends on your definition of "right".
The design has several obvious flaws. Getting each of the flaws just right to blend together to make the exact type of distortion as Dennis does might be tricky.
On the other hand, fix the driver stage flaw and the power supply flaw and it's not a bad sounding amp.
It's pretty hard to make a SET 2a3 amp sound bad but Dennis can do it.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Awwwww- Shucks, TRE!
Try these: (1) Watch "Ice Road Trucker" on the DEFY
television network.
(2) SolariReport.com.
(3) educate-yourself.org.
-Dennis-
I watch Ice Road Truckers but I'm not sure what that (or the other two links) has to do with audio amplifiers.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Those suggestions provided more proof to the claim you have told us how your amps actually perform.
Effects box, IOW. Thanks.
I hope you have read the completed study on why worm medicine looked promising at first, and might still have a use IFF indeed one has parasites already. IDK, do y'all in Montana run around with untreated parasites these days? Or are you going to ignore the WHY of it, and insist it is useful by itself just because something incomplete said it might be?
I am betting on the latter... :)
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
You neglect the first condition... :) SO far all the evidence I see indicated it is not something he can meet.
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
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