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i'm looking to build a temporary bookshelf system eventually around a laptop as my source with an audioquest dragonfly red DAC (i really liked the effortless liquid sound of an original or 1.2 on a vandersteen 5A on a mc cormack DNA amp, if slightly more lush than i prefer... but NOT hard & digital!) and a parasound Z amp until i save up enough money to move and build a serious system.i PLANNED on getting a used pair of axiom M22s or M2s (& stuffing their ports... i DESPISE bass reflex!) until finding out they use planned obsolescence foam surrounds.
ports (unless slotted, or on the front baffle) aren't deal breakers as they can be stuffed, but some other pet peeves i have are:
- flimsy cabinets! i ATTEMPTED to upgrade from my NHT superzeros, at first with well reviewed mission M71s & later with ALLEGEDLY "high end" energy RC10s, both of which had better drivers & tweeters than the NHTs, but forced equally unforgivable choices between port or boxy cabinet resonances when plugged. needless to say, you can NEVER talk me into buying role kayaks, even if they are sealed
- driver resonances. while the sound of NHT classics is mostly excellent, i just can't get past their aluminum resonant sound no matter how slight it is. that's why i wanted axioms... i've used dayton/MB quart titanium domes and love how they have the ease of soft domes with the speed of aluminum & ribbons etc., but without the resonance. for the same reason, i don't like the aluminum foil pingy sound of big maggies, but loved the speed, ESPECIALLY in the bass, of MG12s and freedom from any resonant signatures i could hear.
i don't want power hungry maggies though, but do like their sound. i'm an acoustic suspension mini lover since little infinity references wowed me the way nothing larger, up to $5,000 la scalas ever could until hearing them.
- i don't like soft domes. they are too easy going and just can't do cowbells (percussion speed... top AND bottom are top priorities) like good aluminum (my energy tweets were just fine & very revealing & B&W aluminums are excellent) or titanium, or even better, ribbons, planars & AMTs, but good luck finding a good fast tweeter on any satellite mini that ALSO has a real knuckle test passing cabinet. MAYBE i might find a pair of little B&Ws with rear ports.
ultimately, i'd like KEF LS50s or ascend acoustics sierra 2s with their distortion holes, i mean evil ports, plugged and am annoyed that NO-ONE will make an acoustic suspension mini with premium foam free drivers in solid cabinets when there should be DOZENS of $500 TRUE giant killers.
don't get me started on boston & infinity selling out to the bass reflex devil when they were sonic favorites in the 80s DESPITE their foam surrounds
- oh yeah... foam anything is a total deal killer
the "best candidates" i've been able to come up with are:
- used infinity modulus at around $500, but they're too rare to find. those are the speakers i've most lusted after after reading their review in audio in the 90s after their $100 references were THE speakers that made me finally get into audio because they were so fast and distortion free
- celestion SL6 or 600s... another speaker i lusted after a little, but don't think they could keep up with all of the dance music i listen to as they're described as sounding polite. if i wanted polite, i'd just get another pair of superzeros which are awesome in so many ways except detail retrieval, even on class D. they flat out SUCK on NAD!
- spica TC-50s - also on the hard to find side and overpriced at $350 when that's about what they originally sold for. i wanted to buy a pair back in the day before losing my mind over "minimum baffle", little 5 1/4" with ribbon tweeters modulus. THOSE are the speakers i'd most like within my budget if only anyone had a pair for sale since august, and that was in europe.
if i could, i'd build a pair of minis with RAAL ribbons and maybe a pair of 4 1/2" woofers d'appolito/point source style, but lack the tools and am build challenged as an amputee too.
if anyone knows of any imaging monster bookshelves with solid (preferably sealed) cabinets, rubber surround woofers, and tweeters that can do metallic percussion that can be had for $500 or less (it's a CRIME virtually no-one will offer my idea of REAL "80s infinity style" speakers for less than $1,500!!! arrrrgh!!!!!) i'd appreciate suggestions i'm not holding my breath on. i'd TRY to hold my breath on a pair of modulus if someone could hold them until i get back on my feet here with a new job i'm waiting on.
seriously, being an acoustic suspension mini lover is to be a hated minority in the audio community and screw EVERY hack reviewer who refuses to use AVAILABLE port plugs and report on them!!! had the hacks that tricked me into WASTING money on mission & energy done that, they might have mentioned how unforgivably boxy they sound plugged with their cereal box cabinets and saved me a few hundred dollars on speakers i grew to hate more and more!
i know what i want, but it's virtually unobtanium. if worse come to worse, i'll just get another cheap pair of zeros and try not to silently rage over how soft they are on percussion compared to B&Ws and maggies. otherwise, they super neutral, musical and quick up to the upper mids as well as imaging like crazy. i WISH NHT would make a "super zero" with high quality woofers & tweeters and with edge radiusing for diffraction reduction... like a "poor man's modulus".
did i mention i really like infinity modulus speakers in every way conceptually, never having heard a pair, but DID put a stolen deposit down on a pair of 6 1/2" EMIT demo 2 ways at a shop that was closed when i went to pay the balance, so modulus tweeters can't be hideous at the very least.
were it not for the soft dome tweeters, i used to lust after M&K S-85 minis too.
Edits: 11/28/17 11/28/17Follow Ups:
I just fell head over heals for a set of Bozak 302a Centuries modified as per Mr. Tobin... $300...and they are crushing my Von Schweikert VR4JRs... I am bewildered and wish I was joking!
i believe you... for YOUR tastes, anyways. there really are no "rights & wrongs" with audio... digital vs vinyl, tubes vs solid state, big speakers vs bookshelves etc., just each individual's tastes.
me? i'm a diehard acoustic suspension mini guy for the bass speed, imaging and freedom from cabinet resonances from standard 3/4" MDF, BUT i've also heard some really amazing big speakers too, but the good ones get expensive really quick.
heck, i rebuilt a pair of 12" 2 way cabinets i picked up at a thrift shop for $25, i think using $40 high efficiency woofers and dayton titanium domes with 3.5kHz crossovers and thought the rebuilt speakers sounded pretty nice, especially in the dynamics and scale department and would totally go with those as party speakers every time, but they just didn't image as nice as my NHTs did, even with better tweeters.
the "right" system for anyone is what sounds best to them.
wow... bozak... there's a name i haven't heard since the last time i heard newcleus' jam in it's line about "a rack of bozaks"
Couldn't agree more...there are absolutely no absolutes...it is what makes life fun!! I feel grateful!
hahahahahahaha!
a pair of the ELAC B6s will leave you with money in your pocket and VERY good sounding speakers. listing at $279 they are a no-brainer. i have heard most of the ELAC offerings and not one wasn't a bargain. they will need stands and those can be had at monoprice for a very decent $55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j0vbUFHvNQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oq5qU2CQY8
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&ei=YIEsWoOuHpXmjwO5t7rAAQ&q=elac+b6+yt&oq=elac+b6+yt&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1l3.5891.6026.0.6568.2.2.0.0.0.0.105.207.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.206...0j0i22i30k1.0.nZS4WE3Lp5Q
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=12281&gclid=Cj0KCQiAsK7RBRDzARIsAM2pTZ-gvz7zXCuHsL-cjKKBFL56urZpF7xz4wIOQ9aFN9Zg8BSJdl0e8VgaArswEALw_wcB
have fun.
...regards...tr
yes, the elacs are cheaper, and i've been seeing them popping up a lot, particularly in absolute sound recommendations, but there are 3 things i don't like about them...
1. soft dome tweeters
2. ported
3. 6 inch woofers
i don't want midwoofers over 5 1/2" and for what the elacs are, would rather go back to little NHTs which are great little speakers in most ways except that they lack the tweeter speed of hard domes and ribbons etc. i'm after.
the mini phils are ALMOST exactly what i'd design for myself. i really want to step up to a ribbon tweeter as they supposedly sound even better than planars and AMTs which would be my other choices for tweeter followed by titanium, then aluminum with soft domes being a last resort. they just can't snap like metal and ribbons on cowbells which eventually started bothering me about my superzeos after hearing just how much more open B&W, paradigm & maggie treble is.
the elacs, like 99% of the speakers out there are just more "me too" annoying bass reflex speakers and i despise ports.
the mini phils are worth stretching my budget for and might possibly be "the last speakers i ever need"
i loved the drivers on my energy RC10s which totally outclassed the NHTs from top to bottom, but hated their port resonance unplugges and box resonance unplugged. as much as i love speed and detail, i hate resonance even more and like NHTs better for their total lack of coloration even if they also lack a fair amount of detail and are too forgiving.
the elacs just aren't my kind of speaker, but thanks for trying to help.
after FINALLY learning about mini philharmonitors here, i've FINALLY found sub $1,000 speakers that meet my acoustic suspension mini requirements and that don't take unforgivable shortcuts on drivers (especially tweeters or foam surrounds) or flimsy cabinets as EVERY "sealed capable" bookshelf i've bought so far has.so, i'm thinking this will be my "giant killer phil" system
SOURCE: 44/16 WAVs on a mini laptop driving a jitterbug/dragonfly red combo
AMPLIFICATION: a parasound Z amp (unless the cheap class D "next step upgrade" works well with the DAC & speakers) that might eventually lead to getting another for 90w bridged mono duty and maybe even true bi-amping hotrodding down the road
SPEAKERS: philharmonitor mini philharmonitors would seem to DESTROY B&W, paradigm, axiom etc. in their price range and even way above theoretically with their RAAL tweeters which many consider as candidates for "best in the world" at sane volume levels. mini phils are also gorgeous by my tastes which matters as an artist. my experience with my energy RC10s tells me there really might be an acoustic benefit to using bullet phase plugs instead of dust caps in smaller drivers by at least cutting a bit of moving mass. my RC10s had great drivers, but lousy cabinets when their ports were bunged.
SUB: a dayton RSS265HF-8 10" reference in super beefy denovo cabinets, acoustuffed, and driven by the 500w BASH 500s class D plate i already own. many car audio enthusiasts in particular consider dayton subs to be among the best for SQ competition, and a punchy 10" in an "overbuilt cabinet" shouldn't be a shabby combo. i'd prefer any speed advantage over a 12" and tend to prefer some bottom octave rolloff for casual listening and only need to "feel it" dancing at a club's lofi system
this sounds like a true giant killing system to me
Edits: 12/04/17 12/04/17 12/04/17
in doing my homework reading an audiocircle thread about the sabaj DA3 nas recommended here in a thread i created about the dragonfly red, i was impressed that at least two members thought it clearly sounded better than both the dragonfly, with more apparent detail... the very direction i'd like to go, as well as sounding better than the iDAC.
i'm not a fan of the headphone specific DA3 for a home system though as i really have issues with cables out of a component's front or sides, and stumbled on the D3 (no A) trying to find reviews at headfi. i like that unit more, even if it's slightly inferior sounding as it's built like a component with dedicated RCA outs, all of the connections in back, and an actual volume knob on the front panel. it would match a black class D like the 50wpc dayton that'll be my first upgrade or a black parasound.
that they only cost $100 is a nice little bonus too. thanks again for everyone's input, even when i disagree with it, LOL, trying to help me build a better cheapskate system.
i can't wait to hear those phils. with those tweeters and REAL cabinets, they should blow everything i've ever owned away and sound better, to me, than even more expensive B&Ws and paradigms etc. with their tighter resonance free bass.
i'll just never understand why acoustic suspension is an extreme minority when it offers superior fidelity. i REALLY wish someone would do a plugged vs unplugged waterfall plot to prove once and for all to all the sealed haters that their preferred style of bass is a distortion artifact visually because no amount of science or comments from driver manufacturers like kicker about the pros and cons of sealed vs ported registers with fact haters. then again... if you like your bass to lie...
heh heh heh heh
nt
"Freedom of choice is what you've got. Freedom from choice is what you want." Devo
if anything, i was tempted to get a single 8" sub. i don't need chest massaging bass, just to be able to HEAR it. if anything, too much bass gives me a headache. i know that big ported subs do.
i've spent MOST of my time with various systems without a sub and have been just fine. i've even gone a year or two with JUST NHT superzeros and not been troubled by any lack of bass.
i think that the "competition grade" dayton sub on my 500w plate will be overkill for my needs. maybe that's why i just can't wrap my head around the port loving crowd. to me, "little" maggie MG12s are the "ultimate subwoofers". they are so fast, detailed and free from resonances of any sort that i'd be happy with those as subs, and the lightning fast bass out of those little infinity minis is what turned me into an audiophile.
i'm all about quality of bass and probably prefer some rolloff. for the levels i'll be listening... not much louder than loud talking, but enough to cause neighbor issues in an apartment, if the bass is too light, i can just lower the crossover point and turn it up or otherwise boost it with EQ. i'm POSITIVE i'll be just fine with a single 10.
i was using a pair of 8 inch sealed celestion 2 ways and never felt the bass was lacking. heck, even my 6 1/2" JBLs were good enough, even though i liked their 5 1/4" little brothers more, but i made the compromise to go bigger so i'd have decent bass.
it must be that little bit of brit in my genes that makes me an "eye fi guy"
I fully understand why active speakers aren't even a consideration for many. I went from using rebuilt Eico Hf 20's from Jim Nichols (which I love) to the Model Ones with built in class D amplification without skipping a beat. I honestly have no urge to upgrade, I'm that happy with these and has me seriously rethinking my whole thought process regarding this hobby.
Didn't mean to turn this into a active vs passive.thread and it sounds like you would like to keep things < $500.00. I would definitely look into vintage as well if you haven't done so already
actives can ALSO be all that and a bag of chips, especially with bi & triamplification as well as time alignment and equalization as with the avantgarde zeros.
there are no right or wrongs with audio and most gear types can yield excellent results if properly designed.
i like the idea of separates for both the incremental upgrades option as well as the fine tuning possibility... system too sterile? time to get a tube buffer/preamp... too lush? time to upgrade the DAC or swap class D in.
i'm not a fan of overly forgiving sound and lean a bit towards clinical. i might not even bother to get the Z-amp i planned on if it turns out the phils mate fine with the cheap class D amp i'm going to upgrade from my cheesy old technics receiver i bought used. besides, my experience has taught me drangonflys might be a bit too "tubey" for my tastes and class D might be the way to go with that combo.
i need to hear the gear in action to decide how to dial in close to the center between analytical and musical as neither extreme sounds particularly appealing though i probably lean a little towards analytical as i like speed & detail.
i did a little more reading on philharmonitors, and REALLY like the sound of them now. i wasn't aware zaph audio stopped testing drivers and actually started his own line. his woofer looks to be inspired by the dayton reference line he thought tested so well which is reassuring that the woofer is up to the tweeter's quality.
thanks again for the heads up on those. i'd even consider the $can $speak woofer bigger brother as my final mains, but think i'd be willing to stretch my budget $200 for a pair of "phils" i might even live happily ever after with. smaller speakers generally image better, and the mini phils are very sexy to my eyes with their phase plugs and tweeter matching woofers.
the mini phils are essentially what i gave up on arguing with ascend acoustics to offer as a sierra 2 variant. they don't want to hear from any uppity acoustic suspension for lifers or a peep about overhang, resonance, phase distortion, slop, boom, port chuffing or any of the other unforgivable, to me at least, sins of bass reflex.
without hearing them in person, but doubting they can sound lousy with RAALs in the most crucial role... as far as i'm concerned, unless someone else is doing something similar,
PHIL'S DA MAN!!!!
Glad I was able to offer a possible option for you. Let us know what you decide.
i still don't have the job that'll give me some spending money to rent a house and start a system i can FINALLY listen to at modest volumes yet, but, right now, i'm convinced that this will be my system and that it even might be "so good", that i won't feel a bit of "upgaditis"SOURCE: laptop > jitterbug > dragonfly red DAC
AMPLIFICATION: parasound Z amp (probably used... possibly buying a second for bridged mono, or even "dual mono bi-amping" in the future)
SPEAKERS: philharmonic audio philharmonitors
that looks like a "giant killing" system to me, AND i was VERY impressed by just how liquid a 1.0 or MAYBE 1.2 dragonfly sounded on a mc cormack/vandersteen 5A system. that was at least two dragonfly upgrades ago, so i'm confident in at least THAT component based on personal experience. that cheap DAC sounded unbelievably lush, maybe too much so for my tastes, but not for tube lovers, but absolutely NOT sterile & digital.
besides the super easy on the ears sound of grandpa dragonfly, i'm drawn to the red for its $200 list price as i like thumbing my nose at high priced gear when $100 infinitys were the FIRST speakers that sounded undistorted to me, and even as light as the bass was on them, it was lightning quick which made me an acoustic suspension mini convert on the spot with the conviction that expensive gear is a ripoff when you can slay giants with QUALITY minimonitors, and those styrofoam tweeters and translucent 4 1/2" poly woofers with foam surrounds were pure entry level, but exploiting sound (pun intended) acousic principles like small cabinets with radiused edges that lower diffraction and improve imaging as well as suffer far less box resonance for a given MDF thickness.
as far as i'm concerned, SMALL acoustic suspension minis is the ONLY correct way to build cone speakers. heck, at one pont, i went through a phase (pun intended) where i thought about building a "sweet sixteen" subwoofer out of 5 1/4" woofers for maximum speed.
i might even actually prefer some bass rolloff too, but definitely hate big resonant "giant marshmallow bass"
oh yeah... if i do get that system rolling, my next upgrade would likely be a dayton 10" class D powered sub. (i used to shun ANYTHING over 8") as that would suit my tight bass tastes
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-10-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7091OK... they don't sell the "complete kits" with laminate & plate amps any more, but i already have the 500w plate they used to use, and i think the denovo cabinet is even beefier with its internal bracing anyways, and $200 is a better deal than the $400 or so original kit... win... win
Edits: 12/02/17
I wonder if you might be generalizing about speaker sound based solely on tweeter type and box type. I think implementation is more important.You like dance music but some speakers you mention like the Celestions and Spicas are IMHO rather poor at that. Not sure if that would even matter with dance music if it is good enough for dancing that you would even want to sit still and try to find some imaging in there somewhere.
I would be looking for some used Dynaudios if you can find some in your price range. Or you could check out some cheap powered studio monitors with frequency response adjustments on the back(JBL, Yamaha, Emotiva, Adam, etc.) from stores that have great return policies.
Edits: 11/30/17
in my experience, soft domes just can't handle metallic percussion like metal domes (NHT classics, my former energys, B&W, paradigm & MB quart/dayton titanium) and "ribbons (maggie & EMITs) the same way ported woofers can't thump in the bass.i loved my NHT superzeros. they are excellent speakers with ZERO resonance issues, a very neutral tonal balance, great imaging and a musical (forgiving) sound, but they just couldn't match their own brand aluminum domes and the others mention in the speed & detail department any more than my JBL & mission bookshelves with soft domes could.
i used to hate metal domes when they first came out, & NHT classics are aluminum resonant too, but the best ones today, especially the same titanium domes used in axioms, are very nice sounding without the resonances early ones had
i don't JUST listen to dance music. i love a wide variety of music and mostly just hate anger music (metal, industrial, gangsta etc.), opera, showtunes, MOST jazz, & bagpipes. i listen to a lot of bachelor pad, oldies, big band, world beat, and a fair amount of classical too.
SOME of my "hi-fi" reference discs are:
rhythms - badi assad
DSoM - pink floyd (harvest AND a dual layer SACD)
gravikords, whirlies & pyrophones - VA compilation
the best of both worlds (hannibal/rykodisc) - VA compilaton
planet drum - michey hart
drumming - evelin glennie
the big bang (?) - rykodisc 3cd drumming compilation
the best of sade
BBC orchestra 3cd big band compilation
&
chants of india - ravi shenkar & george harrisoni don't dance at home or even play music loud, since now at least, as i've always lived in apartments, but still get into atomic dog etc.
Edits: 11/30/17
Regarding: "i WISH NHT would make a "super zero" with high quality woofers & tweeters and with edge radiusing for diffraction reduction"
The NHT "Absolute" Zero to some might be what you describe. I use 4 in home theater but never warmed up to them for two channel. The NHT Superzero and Superone are pretty special in that regard. As a former owner of multiple sets of LS3/5a I would say the SZ is a serious competitor to the 3/5a in many areas except fake-ish bass hump. But the SZ can be blended well with a top flight sub and the LS3/5a is not meant for a sub (except perhaps Rogers AB1, which were great). LS3/5a is so special IMO, who really needs a sub anyway?
Get a pair of cheapo used Super Zeros and the best sub you can afford and feed the habit. I use the JL Audio e110 in combination. Incredible!
i never auditioned a pair of absolute zeros. they look HIDEOUS to me with their "kitchen drain" tweeter guards/phase plugs, and i wasn't motivated to check them out after MOSTLY excellent sounding classics disappointed me with THEIR aluminum resonances.
by "super duper zero" (what i intended to say), i mean little superzeros (same size, with 4 1/2" woofers), but with rounded edges on the front baffle for even better diffraction reduction, something like a B&W/energy kevlar woofer with phase plugs instead of dustcaps & planar MMT/planar/ribbon tweeters... basically, hotrodded zeros. i'm not the biggest fan of 5 1/4" woofers, unless 6 1/2" is the only choice.
those little 4 1/2" infinities defined my tastes in speakers... SMALL, but quick & distortion free woofers, and small, preferably radiused sealed cabinets for imaging. bigger woofers are a step in the wrong direction to me & the only thing better than a 4 1/2" midwoofer as far as cones go anyways, is a 3" soft dome in a 3 way with maybe a pair of 5 1/4s.
as far as speakers go, i'm a total speed freak, and maybe lean just a bit towards the clinical side of things, liking class D too.
From 9-20' some metal dome can sound great. Get me any closer and the edge is always there. My Epos M5 are absolutely incredible at 12-15'. Up close, not so fantastic. Come to think of it, most near field pro models I can think of are soft dome or more recently ribbon. That tells me something about metal dome.
i used to sit about 7 feet from my energy RC10s and loved their treble. i didn't hear any sizzle or aluminum resonance. i'd still have them if it wasn't for their flimsy BOX resonances i find unforgivable in a pair of $500+ list bookshelves. the woofer was great too, but the boxy sound slowly started driving me nuts.
i could see how the average (read not port despising) listener (or lazy reviewer who refuses to used supplied plugs and report on them!) would love RC10s unplugged. they box resonances seemed to disappear the last time i listened to them on cambridge gear where i sold them, and they sounded extremely lush and musical where they were just a bit clinical on my class D panasonic.
metal domes were TERRIBLE, like CDs when they first came out... like fingernails dragged on a blackboard harsh! even B&W sounded bad on early digital.
still a bit over $500 and the 85's are still found on eBay
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 11/29/17
actually, i just saw a pair of S85s for about $350 somewhere! i'd steer away from them though because of the soft domes, but i'm sure they sound better than superzeros.
availability of WHATEVER will definitely be an issue when i'm ready to replace my 6 1/2" JBL northrige outdoors. MAYBE, just maybe... someone'll be selling a pair of modulus in the US around $500 when i've saved up.
i still have the audio magazine review i saved from my issue in storage. i started out as an infinity lover, so those hold a strong nostalgic pull for me along with being very close to the "perfect speaker" i'd design myself... time aligned? no way! tweeter wide baffles?! yowza! i'd have gone with a 4 1/2" midwoofer woofer though
You have a unique set of challenges that you're presenting here. You want a $500 bookshelf speaker, which isn't a problem, but you can't tolerate ported boxes.
Can you tolerate poor low frequency response?
You also have an issue with foam surrounds, so we need to assume that you're going to own these speakers for over 30 years and that there is no speaker tech anywhere near you?
Then there's this:
"NO-ONE will make an acoustic suspension mini with premium foam free drivers in solid cabinets when there should be DOZENS of $500 TRUE giant killers."
It will be tough to sell a speaker with such poor low frequency response. Look at the LS3/5A, it's several times your budget and it's -6dB at 70Hz.
You are correct to look into DIYing something for yourself, this will end up being a unique project.
if i had the capital, i'd start a high value acoustic suspension only brand.i'm very biased against overpriced & ported speakers after my buddy's $100 pair of infinity reference 4 1/2" bookshelves ran circles around anything i'd ever heard before in every way EXCEPT bass extension, but even there, i liked their speed better.
DIY is a no go for me though unless it's a kit. there's no way i'd be able to do routing 1 handed which adds to my frustration as having someone else build cabinets would drive my build price through the stratosphere.
i already TRIED that route with a former alleged friend who was an excellent woodworker who built me a pair of totally useless boxes with my 4 x 6 1/2" midwoofers routed too close to fit, on cabinets he changed the dimensions of too on top of swapping the supposedly AGREED upon 1" burl with 1/2" radiusing front baffle to 3/4 lightweight pine with slight baffle rounding. my specs would have fit my bike trailer, but he took it upon himself to add fugly styrofoam inserts around everything, so i could no longer just tilt the wagon to put speakers in or pull them as they'd fall out!
that's what happens when you hire a hard headed a hole who can't follow a freakin' blueprint even if he builds amazing stuff for himself.
i should have known he'd eff it up after he kept arguing with me about EVERY aspect of my design, but thought my blueprints were a "set in stone" contract he verbally agreed to.
Edits: 11/30/17
1" thick burl wood will warp and pull itself off the box, I'm glad he didn't do that.
Have you thought about just doing a 3 way design with a sealed monitor on top of a large sealed subwoofer on each side?
actually, my planned system will be sub/sat, but WITH only only one 10" dayton sub on the 500w class D BASH 500S plate amp i have in storage. i'll be getting sand filled posts. putting minis on wooden boxes isn't the best idea. i was even getting weird resonances out of my energy RC10s on cinder blocks i THOUGHT were acoustically inert, and didn't fare any better using the 4 x 12" sub boxes i bought for a "HQ DJ system" as stands.
i found that sand filled stands really improve sound back when i had a pair for my NHT superzeros
i've always had respect, for BBCs, but never liked the terrible diffraction cabinet variants with the sunken woofers or lusted after their soft dome tweeters.
that, and as you mentioned, even used, they're way overpriced. i could score a pair of used NHT superzeros for $100 any day, and i loved them, except for their lack of treble speed & detail. if i only listened to jazz & vocals, superzeros would be all the speaker i ever needed.
as to 30 years... yes, i'd like to keep whay i own, and foam rots in just TEN years. i don't like the idea of something made to eventually be replaced, as a tree hugger, when rubber does the same job perfectly.
i'm very "greedy corporate culture" hostile.
you should ALWAYS give your customers the best product possible and put them ahead of profits. that's how i'll run the little side business i'm working on. i'd rather make less money selling superior products and have no respect for bean counters
ABSOLUTELY!!! i'll trade bass QUALITY for QUANTITY EVERY TIME!
in fact, it was the SPEED of the bass challenged infinitys, pictured, that drove me out of their minds. resonances just don't sound right to me at all. they make speakers sound like speakers whereas those little "$100 giant killers" totally disappeared and sounded more natural than anything i'd ever heard before, and i'd heard $1,000+ towers etc.
that's why my handle is "thump"... i like tight bass much more than big resonant bass which actually gives me a headache. i probably PREFER rolloff too, unless i'm dancing and want to feel it.
to ME, the "bass hated" smaller maggies are my "ideal subwoofer". i just love how detailed and unboxy they sound in the bass that snaps faster than ANYTHING.
i'd think being an avowed minimonitor lover would imply i'm OK with light bass. i used my superzeros a long time without a sub and never bothered with my 5 1/4" missions and energys.
if a mini is extremely bass limited... well that's what subs are for. when i'm renting my own house and no longer sharing walls, my ultimate system would be sub/sat
Forget Axiom. One of my happiest days was when I sold a pair of Axioms for almost nothing.I've been burned twice by internet-only products. I stay away now.
(Same buyer bought some speaker wire from PSAudio, also sold cheaply, wire that I had to wrestle to the ground every time I hooked it up. Gee, that was a GREAT day!)
Edits: 11/29/17
i own a pair of the same dayton (MB quart) titanium domes used in 1st generation axiom milleniums. and love them very much. they have the musicality strength of soft domes without aluminum resonances, but with MOST of the speed of aluminums, and tweeters are the most important driver, to me at least. i could live happily with any pair of speakers with dayton titaniums if their woofers & cabinets were high quality too.
to my ears, they have all the detail my NHTs were missing, but are just a bit more musical and laid back and less clinical sounding than my energys (on digital + class D) which weren't shabby or even objectionable in any way and that mated much better with cambridge A/B amps & DACs.
By accident I stumbled upon an amazing little system. A neighbor threw away a Polk PSW-10 sub and I scored a pair of Definitive technology ProCinema 600 mini satellite speakers on Facebook for free. I setup the 600's on 24" stands in a Quasi near field 2.1 config, well away from walls, with the Polk. This combo is considerably more musical dynamic and clean sounding than any of my other speakers (with and without the sub)
The little speakers are sealed and do not suffer from box coloration that the others do. The speakers just disappear. There is much less distortion caused by their small rigid cabinets.
Other speakers in house
* PSB Century 1000i
* Boston A26
* Mission 780 (original woofers repaired)
* Mission 732
* Mission 734
* Design Acoustics PS10a
found a pair selling for $120 on ebay. most of the sales are for systems, but that's a nice price.was reading reviews, and one stated they weren't the best for music, but 4 1/2 stars at 67 reviews isn't bad. i'll read the sound & vision review at home.
at such a cheap price, they'd make saving up to move out of state about $500 faster
wait a minute... is that a passive radiator on top?
if it is... deal breaker
Edits: 11/30/17
hmmm... that's ineresting, and your pair is up against some decent competition. definitive tech has always been considered a high value "entry level" brand as long as i can remember.
i'm really liking the "last" (first?) reply for the philharmonitors with their RAAL tweeters, but if i can score a cheap pair of definitives, especially sealed, i'd get those to upgrade over my decent sounding JBL outdoors i'm using now with their ports plugged with foam golf balls. their plastic cabinets are nowhere near state of the art, but don't sound boxy at low volumes nearfield. i bet they'd start to at real volumes.
thanks for the heads up. i've always thought definitive was a ports only brand
Yes,I my setup it works very well. The old adage that small home theater speakers don't work well with music is not true. And like you, I'm done with soft dome tweeters, there is a level of realism that's missing from them.
Better yet, the Procinema series has been discontinued by Definitive. You can see if your local Best Buy has a pair of 600 or 800 monitors on closeout for around $200.
not a fan of passive radiators, horns, transmission lines or pretty much anything BUT acoustic suspension, except for compound loaded (isobaric) acoustic suspension.
really, i'm excited to find out about the philharmonitors... THEY are more or less the sierra 2 "upgrades" i argued with ascend acoustics, who don't want to hear diddly from uppity acoustic suspension lovers, to make at half the price! i really think phase plug woofers are sexy too especially efter loving the drivers (only) on my energy RC10s.
as to soft dome "realism", they do soften hard transients, but, can sound very realistic on vocals and softer instruments. in fact, while my energy RC-10s and their excellent tweeters in particular were better than my NHT superzero drivers, there was one track where the NHT soft domes were better sounding on my panasonic SA-XR... water drums 1 by baka forest people. the track sounds EXTREMELY real on NHTs, but didn't image as well or sound as literally liquid on energy aluminum domes. there really sounds like there's water between the speakers on NHTs, but the energys beat them on everything else, particularly tracks with metallic percussion or busy high frequency content.
Heck these are the best speaker under $2k.
http://zaphaudio.com/SR71.html
i'm familiar with zaph audio, and their dated, but excellent driver tests and half a dozen or so builds, but, like i said, i don't have woodworking tools, and even if i did, routing ain't ever gonna happen one handed. otherwise, yeah... i'd totally DIY a biamped system with RAAL ribbons and seas 5 1/2" magnesium excels (or maybe even 4 1/2" ?) d'appolito style.
without prebuilt cabinets, i can't build speakers sadly.
Sure you can. Since the front baffles are separate, maybe you can have someone locally rout the speaker openings and recesses.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.- JFK
that would still be expensive as i've tried to have several things built including SIMPLE boxes (not speakers, just open top boxes with dimensions, not even assembled!) and no-one wants to hear anything under $100.
i'm really liking the mini philharmonitors. they're very close to what i'd have custom built myself and very reasonably priced at $700 considering the tweeters alone probably cost $300+. about the only thing i'd change, other than using premium caps & coils would be using seas excel magnesium drivers or possibly going 4 1/2" d'appolito, but 5 1/2" is a decent sized midwoofer too. i wouldn't get bigger than that though.
i'll be saving my pocket change up for mini phils. they have great drivers, aren't overpriced (essentially, they're sealed ascend acoustics sierra 2s at about half the price, and i wanted to get those and stuff their ports with rags... like a savage), are gorgeous, and are fully engineered already.
ANY builder still offering high value acoustic suspension deserves MY business. i MIGHT put buying them off a while and see what i can find for $100, or if my JBL northridge outdoors are tolerable at higher volumes than i listen to them now near field, and then get mini phils down the road. they're totally lustworthy by my standards.
OP doesnt like ported designs. Is there an equivalent Zaph that is sealed?
Does it work that way for the same drivers and crossover??
Cheers
Bill
$2,000 is so out of my budget.
i'm looking for an "under $1000" temporary system while i save up to move out of this town i hate so much. it'll be well over a year before i get $2,000 serious for a pair of monitors, and the much raved $1,200 KEF LS50 & $1,500 ascend acoustics sierra 2 are $500 "more agreeable" to my budget.
the infinity modulus pictured in my original post sell for around $500, but they hardly ever show up for sale. if i bought a pair, it's possible i might never feel the need to upgrade. if it wasn't for the box resonances in my RC10s, i could have lived very happily with those "poor man's B&Ws"
Do consider Phil jones's latest creation: the Airpulse Model One. It is an active monitor with a horn loaded 3" ribbon tweeter which is very detailed but not harsh and a 5 1/2" mid driver which offers outstanding bass and midrange as well. For $995.00 they're a ridiculously good value. I've had mine for four months and couldn't be happier
not interested in a closed system. i plan to keep upgrading amps, DACs & speakers in the future and was considering a:
KEF LS50 -OR- ascend acoustics sierra 2
schiit gungnir multibit
DIY:
hypex Ncore
slagle autoformer
glassware audio aikido
final system. those "all in 1" speakers would block upgrades, and i'm not a fan of horns either, but i wouldn't turn a pair down if they were free or even half the price maybe.
if i bought a pair, i'd have to upgrade my ENTIRE system at once instead of piece by piece as i plan on
The Airpulse one's are my first pair of active speakers and I'm just smitten with them but I do understand why many enjoy the flexibility of using different kinds of amps to match the sound most suited to their tastes. I went the active route out of necessity as I do not have a dedicated listening room and all the cabling and interconnect clutter just wasn't cutting it and driving my wife crazy. I bought the Model 1's without hearing them as there was a 60 day money back guarantee and I'm sure glad I did, I'm shocked how good they sound just streaming Spotify! In my case simpler was better. Best of luck in your quest, there's a lot of hidden gems out there you just need to be patient
actives CAN often sound excellent, even better as one reviewer said about ATC SCM40s, but to me, if you rely on built in amplification, you're limiting yourself to a likely limiting factor as built in amps probably aren't "high end" and are built to a price standard.
yes, that's a generalization, but i'd rather KNOW that i'm getting the best amp possible in my price range than count on an unknown quantity that can't be compared against anything else.
besides that, different amps have different personalities. what's a tube amp lover to do with active speakers? the last time i checked, NONE of them use tubes. i'm more of a class D lover, but even there... you need system matching, and down the road, if i go the hypex N core route (many think they're THE BEST amps in the world) i'd be inclined to pair them with tube preamplification to inject a bit of warmth to "liven up" both the class D and my digital source, but the only way to KNOW what i need is to start a system and track its weaknesses down.
if you buy an active system and then notice a weakness over time (like i did with the cabinet resonances of my energy RC10s with their ports plugged for instance, you are LOCKED IN with no way to fix the issue other than start from scratch with new amplification and speakers and even a DAC maybe.
i dread such a potential straightjacket.
back to class D, it REALLY perked my NHT superzero's treble speed & detail up over the "sloppy muffled" sound of them paired with NAD "classic", but my panasonic SA-XR sounded a bit clinical on my energys which might have benefited from more forgiving amplification. i was surprised at just how liquid they sounded when i listened to them one last time on a cambridge mini system at the shop i sold them to.
system matching gives owners the flexibility to tweak EVERY component in a signal chain AND upgrade everything at any time their budgets allowed.
THATs what goes on in my head. it's quite possible there are many active systems like the SCMs i'll never be able to afford (or trust to give me the treble detail i demand with their soft dome tweeters) that are so good, they could be lived with for the rest of my life.
even my humble NHT/panasonic system was very satisfying EXEPT when it came to metallic percussion where B&W, maggie, paradigm & energy etc ran circles around them.
i tend to believe that it's possible to build an AMAZING and CHEAP sub-sat system once i FINALLY heard "undistorted sound", not from $1,000+ towers, but my friend's $100 infinitys! my goal is to get the best bang for the buck out of every component as i don't buy (pun intended) the "you get what you pay for" argument with audio. i've heard B&W & maggies sound hideous on very expensive gear my cheap NHT/panasonic/onkyo DVD system sounded better than.
I was being funny. the kit cost around $350 for all the parts. And the cabinets you can make for around $40 from Home Depot fiber board.
These are excellent speakers. I've been using them for around three years and have NO plans on upgrading - EVER.
if i could make cabinets, i'd design my own RAAL seas excel system and maybe even bi-amp it
Forgot to mention they also have a built in dac and Bluetooth aptX
Just saw your post. I also prefer sealed box monitors as well. As far as your $500 budget, not sure but here are some possible options:
http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/Mini-Monitor.html RAAL tweeter sealed box
https://www.roleaudio.com/skiff
https://www.roleaudio.com/kayak
Received yesterday - (2)Definitive Technology SM55 book shelf speakers. I got them as "open box" for $345.00/pair. Haven't had much time to listen to them but so far, sound more like full size floor models.
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YES! the Mini Philharmonitor is GORGEOUS!!! i could see stretching my budget $200 more for a new pair of "perfect by my standards" monitorsas to roles... like i thought i said in my original post, i don't care how high rated their kayaks are as they use 1/2" or 5/8" cabinets which i would never settle for after the cereal box sound of my missions and energys that i hated so much even with the energy's awesome kevlar woofer and very natural sounding tweeter. i just can't stand resonance of ANY kind whether it be ports, cabinets, or aluminum and big planar drivers.
if the Mini Philharmonitor has at least a 3/4" cabinet... i might very well get a pair. i'll try to find reviews. it's tough... i'm on a library PC, so my time is limited
Edits: 11/30/17
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