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Looks like I am up for a change...
I have been running my Cain & Cain Abbys for close to 3 years with a Fi Super X 2A3 amp and so far love the lively, direct, and dynamic sound of the Fi 2A3. Recently, I compared my Fi Super X 2A3/45 to a Verdier 45 amp on the Abbys.
The Verdier just gave me a lot more refinement, a more extended tighter bass, a much wetter midrange and sweeter highs. When switching the 45 into the Fi I noticed similar improvement, but not quite reaching the levels of refinement of the Verdier while also loosing dynamics. It was obvious that the Fi is not optimized for 45s to the extent that actually preferred the Fi with the 2A3 tubes instead of 45s. I noticed some dynamic compression with 45s in either amp during very loud listening levels for classical music as the Abbys are not quite that sensitive.
Now I am tempted to switch amps after hearing the improvements I am getting with the Verdier 45 - considering:
- Yamamoto A-08S 45
- Fi 45
- Verdier 45
or even
- Yamamoto A-09S 300b
- Fi 300b monos
Any recommendations? I haven't been able to listen to Yamamoto, but I am looking for some refinement over the Fi 2A3 which I am not sure the Fi 45 or 300b mono's will offer. I do like Don's sound, but looking for a slightly different flavor. I really want to avoid the thick tube-like 300b sound I heard from some Cary amps though...
Thanks,
Rene
Die gefährlichste Weltanschauung ist die Weltanschauung derjenigen, die die Welt nicht angeschaut haben.
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)
Follow Ups:
Because, in the end, that is what you are listening to, a tube-modulated power supply.
If you are getting a little bored with your 2A3 amp, it is best to look at the causes of boredom. Most likely, the cause of boredom IS the high resistance power supply, which is TYPICAL of many of the DHT amps people build and buy.
So, first, find out what the DCR is of your power transformer's high voltage secondary. Is it over 20 ohms DCR? If so, you never heard the full possibilities of the 2A3 tube!! 'Same DCR requirement applies to any chokes in the filtering of B+, 20 ohms or less.
Fix the high resistances in your amp's power supply, and the 2A3 or Type 45 amplifier will take on a whole new meaning when you listen, and you won't be bored!!!
Jeff Medwin
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I guess I should clarify somewhat -
The Fi 2A3 is far from boring sounding and also does not lack bass control IMO, at least not with the Shuguang 2A3c. Where it does lack is refinement, soundstage depth, and sweetness, at least compared to running 45 tubes.
The 45 tube has a bit of a different flavor that seems to work well with the C&C Abbys.
Die gefährlichste Weltanschauung ist die Weltanschauung derjenigen, die die Welt nicht angeschaut haben.
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)
I would avoid the 300B from your comments and my knowledge.
Are you experienced and can you build your own amp?? If so, a Loftin White Type 45 amplifier, with a LSES power supply, will rock your boat and outplay all 45 amps you have heard.
Jeff Medwin
I am so glad to have 300b amps even though I have often felt that the 45 was better. I have not tried 300b with the Abbys (nearfield version)even though the 45 can be insufficient on them in terms of power. I like the 300b with more vintage speakers like Altecs. I have not made much of a discrimination lately between say a 6sn7/300b (idht/300b) versus a 6sn7/26/300b idht/dht/300b. Both sound good for a 300b sound. But adding the dht in the middle can really increase the articulation and quality of sound.I have never heard a Fi, Cary, Verdier, or Yamamoto. I don't know the tube configuration of the first 3 but I believe the Yamamoto is a 717a/45. That is a pentode feeding the 45. That type of configuration has been highly tooted by some. What you get with that is a very good sound, well rounded, nice sounding.
I have a John Hogan diy version with ac across all tubes. I bet it would compare very favorably with the Yamamoto. After months of comparison, it took that long to make a determination, I found that I prefer a 6sn7/26/45 (idht/dht/45) to the pentode/45. I have never found a 45 that I prefer more. It does extremely well with single drivers.
I play the idht/dht/45 for years now and I am very satisfied with it and never find it wanting. I do tend to play alot of the same music over and over. Every single night I put the kids to bed with a cd called "Miles to Go" by Billy Paul Williams, and I have never not enjoyed it nor not been satisfied with the sound.
The fact that no one seems to make this type of amp just makes you think that you would have to find someone to build it and build it with the best opts that you can find. Do you think the Yamamato will be around in 10-20 years? I guess the pentode feeding a 45 idea will last a while because it does produce a generally good and pleasant sound. But I can say that I think there is perhaps some that can be quite better.
Edits: 10/29/08
I have had the pleasure of owning and comparing several 45 set's through my various high efficiency speakers, including the JC Verdier 45. By far the least costly was the A08-S. However the Yamamoto was and is easily the best sounding of the bunch (not even close).
I did read your very nice and insightful review of the Verdier vs. Yamamoto.
I already liked the Verdier which has me convinced that I may like the Yamamoto even more. It is also encouraging that Brian of Venushifi is running the Yamamoto into the Abbys.
Die gefährlichste Weltanschauung ist die Weltanschauung derjenigen, die die Welt nicht angeschaut haben.
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)
By the way, the Verdier is the one that Srajan refused to review:
Verdier 45
Very nice amp IMO. There were only a few made.
Rene
Die gefährlichste Weltanschauung ist die Weltanschauung derjenigen, die die Welt nicht angeschaut haben.
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)
This 45 was a modification of an J.C.Verdier 2A3 amp by an enthusiast not an original Verdier 45 amp. And Srajan refused to review. J.C.Verdier 45 amps made by special orders i think.
Best regards from Turkey
www.stereomecmuasi.com
As far as I know, the one Srajan had was a prototype and there were a few released. They are based on the 2A3 version of course as most 45 tube amps are. The one I heard was Serial #2.
It did NOT look like it was made by an Enthusiast, but rather a custom version made by Verdier.
Die gefährlichste Weltanschauung ist die Weltanschauung derjenigen, die die Welt nicht angeschaut haben.
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)
I think for the real story we must ask this to j.C.Verdier :)
www.stereomecmuasi.com
I would consider a DRD amp, see if Jack Eliano will build one for you. The DRD circuit has more bass dynamics than the usual cap or direct coupled two stage circuit.
The latest Bottlehead 45 amp is supposed to be excellent also.
Don could also switch out the filament trans on your amp for 45's.
The 45 is definitely king.
> > > Don could also switch out the filament trans on your amp for 45's. < < <
Did I miss something? I thought the operating points and load would not be optimised for the 45; the filament trans (AC?) should be fine.
Cheers
Do you know the output transformer primary impedance on the amps you are using? Especially the Fi and the Verdier?
I ask because, while the 45 can run happily into the same impedance as a 2A3, it will have significantly less damping factor. This will "loosen up" the bass on many speakers, leading to a bit more excursion, and while the Abbys are among the best for tolerating the excursion limits of the 6.5" Fostex drivers, those drivers will always be on the edge unless they are in serious horn cabinets.
If the Fi has impedance taps, which I think it does but I'm not entirely sure, you might try the 4 ohm tap with the 45. This will reduce the maximum power slightly, but will increase the speaker damping factor. That might give you some insight into whether you need more power or greater damping - or at least, lead you to identify the difference.
Incidentally, it's been my experience that circuit design, operating points, transformers and other components, and driver tube selection all have a larger impact on "thick tube-like ... sound" than the choice of output tube. Not of course the complete picture, each tube does have a characteristic of its own, but the rest of the environment can be quite significant.
Paul,
very interesting comment and observations.
The Fi is wired for 8 Ohms - I could rewire it ;), on the Verdier 45 I used the 8 Ohm tap. I may try to borrow the Verdier 45 again and try the 4 Ohm tap. The Fi Super X 2A3 does certainly very well on bass with the Abbys.
From what I heard so far - I agree that the circuit design overall has more impact on the overall sound. The my friend's Bottlehead Paramours and my SEX amp had some very similar signatures (at low volumes into the Abbys). Also, I doubt that any of Don Garber's amps would ever sound thick ;)
Best wishes,
Rene
Die gefährlichste Weltanschauung ist die Weltanschauung derjenigen, die die Welt nicht angeschaut haben.
Alexander von Humboldt (1769-1859)
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