- Posted by David Aiken (A) on December 16, 2010 at 12:19:59
In Reply to: RE: HELP....... posted by The peleton on December 16, 2010 at 05:08:35
Well, your previous thread ended with no mention of the current issue and you said you were swapping rooms with the Acoustats and that the Maggies were going into your office.
As a result of what you said at the end of the last post and what you're saying now, I'm not certain whether the room is the same or what other changes you've made in the meantime. It's hard to help when you have no idea about what's going on with the room and what changes have been made since the previous thread.
All we really know this time around is that:
"the room is 18 x 22 with 16foot ceiling and a persian rug
seating is four feet from back wall which is the window wall
the room is a 7.1 with acoustats monitor 3's magnepan center and 12 inch banging sub"
and:
"PROBLEM? echo hot high frequency bright all that kind of stuff..."
This is a room acoustics forum. What kind of things affect room acoustics? The materials room surfaces are made from, location of things like windows and doors which can be very reflective at high frequencies, what kind of coverings are on the windows and floor, are the window coverings open or closed when listening, location of speakers, location of listening position, location of other furniture in the room and what it is, type/size/location of screen in a home theatre setup, and so on. You said you've got Everest's book so you should know what kind of things can affect the results you get, but you choose to provide virtually no information at all. The description of your problem is also on the unclear side.
What you were provided with was a link to a page that describes the basics of room acoustics. Sure it's a commercial page but the info applies to all rooms and is equally valid whether you choose to buy Ethan's products or not. If you want detailed, step by step advice, you need to provide the kind of information that allows someone to give you detailed step by step advice and we don't have it.
It takes time for people to provide really helpful replies and one of the things that encourages people to do that is reading a request one which gives all of the information that's needed for someone to come up with a reply, and which gives it clearly and logically so they don't have to spend more time working things out than necessary. That kind of request takes some time and effort on the part of the poster and you haven't given us that here. You didn't last time either, you added or changed info regularly, referred to "drapes" as "panels" and so on.
We don't have the information needed to give you the type of answer you're looking for. What you got is pretty much the type of information that can be provided when people have no real info to work on.
If you want more than you got, start again from the beginning. Give lots of information. Make it clear and unambiguous. Set it out logically so people don't have to spend more time and effort than necessary working out what the nature and setup of the room is, and try and give a good description of the problem that's bothering you. Then you may get something more than what you've already got but there's no guarantees about that.
Finally I don't think you realise how hard it can be trying to provide advice in a forum like this when you actually can't see the room and hear the problem for yourself. In addition, preparing a detailed answer for someone can take a fair bit of time. I've spent more than an hour on some answers over the time I've been here and I assume others have spent similar amounts of time. You're asking a lot of people. Start recognising that and acknowledging it. No one has to answer you. People do so because they want to help and whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you were offered information in Ethan's reply. It's not his fault that you didn't give him the information that would have let him provide a different answer, and it's not my fault that I didn't see anything I could work with in your request this time. If you want someone to spend a fair amount of time and effort trying to help you're going to have to make them want to help you. I'd suggest your response here isn't really likely to do that.
David Aiken
Follow Ups:
- RE: HELP....... - Ethan Winer 09:56:58 12/18/10
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- In Reply to: RE: HELP....... posted by David Aiken on December 16, 2010 at 12:19:59
> I've spent more than an hour on some answers
I spend about four hours every day helping people who I know for certain will never buy anything from my company. Acoustics is so misunderstood, and even more so ignored, my efforts are simply to educate.
--Ethan
- RE: HELP....... - David Aiken 12:01:36 12/18/10
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- In Reply to: RE: HELP....... posted by Ethan Winer on December 18, 2010 at 09:56:58
Ethan,
I'm actually starting to wonder about the value of forums like this.
Are we really helping by providing a forum where someone can ask "I've got a problem—what do I do to fix it?", in the expectation that they will be given a nice simple step by step answer they can blindly follow? Are we better off "giving them a fish" by giving them an answer or "teaching them how to fish" by pointing to books like Everest's and Toole's with a lot of useful information, guidelines, and recommendations and telling them to read, get a basic understanding, and work it out for themselves so they end up with some ideas about not only what to do this time but also what to do next time, and the time after?
I'm starting to think that teaching them how to fish is better. I'm tired of the misunderstandings, I'm tired of the expectation that there's always a simple answer, and I'm tired of the assumption that the existence of forums like this means that there are people out there who have an obligation to provide the type of answer the questioner wants.
Perhaps it's time to simply start answering questions about acoustic theory and not answering the "how do I fix it?" questions, to try and make questioners work out the answer for themselves with assistance limited to a little advice about what to consider and where to look for some info.
David Aiken
- RE: HELP....... - Ethan Winer 08:01:48 12/19/10
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- In Reply to: RE: HELP....... posted by David Aiken on December 18, 2010 at 12:01:36
As for teaching to fish, I generally post links to relevant articles rather than tell people what to do specifically. Especially, when there's a long list of questions in a thread titled "Help I'm totally lost." I'm all for helping people DIY, but that implies a responsibility for them to make some effort to learn. People who'd rather be handed everything on a platter can buy commercial products, which comes with advice, or pay a consultant. BTW, this is just a general comment, and not a reflection in the OP who seems willing to learn. I face this dilemma every day, as do other professionals who earn a living from their knowledge. We post in forums to help educate people, and I spend a lot of effort writing articles that don't earn me one penny.
--Ethan
- RE: HELP....... - Ethan Winer 08:01:48 12/19/10
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- RE: HELP....... - David Aiken 12:01:36 12/18/10
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- RE: HELP....... - The peleton 17:15:09 12/16/10
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- In Reply to: RE: HELP....... posted by David Aiken on December 16, 2010 at 12:19:59
nice response-now I know what you guys need...my response...Pictures and a detailed description of what I like and dislike about the sound quality Im getting and what I hope to strive for. Thanks for spending the time to help me.
- Some clues for you to work from - David Aiken 13:43:02 12/18/10
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- In Reply to: RE: HELP....... posted by The peleton on December 16, 2010 at 17:15:09
What you hear is a combination of direct and reflected sound. If you are getting too much in a particular frequency band the problem could be that the direct sound contains too much of that band, the reflected sound contains too much, or both the direct and reflected sound contain too much.
Direct sound contains too much:
1- try listening further off axis to see if that helps. Note that adjusting toe in so that you are more off axis will ensure that side wall first reflection points are more on axis unless you adjust the speakers so their axial radiation crosses in front of you which isn't the norm. If the first reflection points become more on axis, the reflected sound may end up containing more of the problem reflections.
2- try listening further away from the speaker. This will reduce the strength of the direct sound and ensure that a greater portion of what you hear is reflected sound. If the problem is in the direct sound, this should help. It will also result in the first reflection points being more on axis.
3- if you've got a problem somewhere in your equipment producing the boost in level in a particular bandwidth, you need to fix that problem. Playing with acoustics can help but the problem is still going to lurk there and any changes you make in the room or setup may result in it becoming an issue again.
Reflected sound contains too much:
1- you have too much narrow band absorption in the room. In your case with the highs too hot that's unlikely to be an issue since most narrow band absorption tends to absorb in the highs only because that's the easiest frequency band to absorb.
2- you have too much reflective area that strongly reflects highs. That means uncovered glass, concrete or similar hard smooth surfaces. This can be a bigger problem if those areas are at first reflection points. Add broadband absorption to some of those areas. You'll probably get a bigger change for the same amount of absorption if you treat first reflection points starting with the first reflection points closest to you unless the issue is large areas of something like glass or stone walls elsewhere in the room. Hard, bare floors can also cause problems. Changing the location of speakers and listening position so that the first reflection points fall on other surfaces that aren't as reflective in the highs may also help.
Both direct and reflected sound contain too much:
Try a combination of the strategies for both issues.
You're going to have to experiment to get the balance you like. Different people like different balances and my tastes are probably different to yours so what works for me may not work for you.
David Aiken
- RE: Some clues for you to work from - The peleton 03:35:27 12/19/10
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- In Reply to: RE: Some clues for you to work from posted by David Aiken on December 18, 2010 at 13:43:02
update-pictures coming, I wanted to get the room finished in terms of wiring and getting everything out that didnt need to be there.
The media room in question is carpeted with a persian rug as I mentioned. I finished wiring the 7.1 system, I found the sound somehow changed. It is at nearly bearable levels.
In response to your why do we do this anymore question, I think I can shed some light on this subject. The subject matter of room acoustics is just plain complicated. For me, its the last thing on my agenda. When I decided to take on this world of the audiophile addiction I started with equipment, cables and the like. Its more like learning to bat before learning to throw or catch. Clearly its not the ideal way to learn but its certainly typical. When it comes to the science of sound-the math-Im totally lost! People just plain dont allocate money into their budget for room acoustics as they should. Without this this forum where a person like myself can learn to do it myself as opposed to hiring a firm, room acoustics simply would be out of reach. I for one appreciate the guidance.
Heres what I know-based on experience-
I had the media room walls covered in thin ikea velvet drapes. The system was different and instead of two leather armchairs there was four media room recliners and no rug. The sound was so much cleaner. It didnt hurt my ears after an hour of listening. That being said I know I need to do something for the walls its just a matter of what....thats what i need to determine after giving you all as much info as I can give. Because I certainly cant go back to all four walls being draped again.
ps the rooms very dim so Ill have to use a camera flash which will look like crap
- RE: Some clues for you to work from - David Aiken 12:40:33 12/19/10
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- In Reply to: RE: Some clues for you to work from posted by The peleton on December 19, 2010 at 03:35:27
The thin drapes were probably providing fairly narrow band absorption in the high frequency range. Remove a big surface area of that and it will be noticeable with stronger highs. I don't know what your media room recliners were covered in but if it was fabric, they also would have absorbed some highs while leather tends to be reflective of highs. If the armchairs have backrests coming up behind your ears, covering the head rest area with a doubled towel may help.
The change in furniture and removal of the drapes may both have resulted in more highs in the room. The rug will absorb some highs, and maybe even be a bit more absorbent at the high frequency level than the drapes but it's also probably a lot smaller in surface area than the drapes were so overall it's probably absorbing less high frequency sound than the drapes were.
Do you have tone controls on your pre-amp? Try playing with the treble control if you do.
If you're going to do something with the walls, do it in stages and start with first reflection points. Try treating them one set at a time, and experiment to find out which ones are more critical. You can do the experiments using things like folded blankets or quilts and that will help you work out which areas you need to treat. When it comes to side wall first reflections you need to be aware that Toole thinks that most people prefer them untreated because they add to the sense of spaciousness. I recently moved the panels at my side wall reflections to the front wall and while I had to play around with where I put them on my front wall (the front wall first reflection points were already treated), I was quite surprised to find that I actually prefer the side wall points untreated which was not what I expected.
Wherever you put the absorption you will absorb some high frequency sound and a given panel will absorb exactly the same amount no matter where you put it. Still, putting the absorption in some locations will have more audible effect than in others. You get a bigger audible effect at first reflection points because the reflections arriving from them are higher in level than those arriving from other locations in the room because they arrive after having travelled a much shorter distance. You can get the same reduction in highs from using similar absorption at a different point provided you use a greater area of absorption BUT moving it to a different area will also produce differences in other aspects of the sound such as the sense of spaciousness and possibly in imaging. You're going to have to play around to find the solution that suits you best. There isn't a single solution that suits everyone simply because everyone has different tastes. There are some standard recommendations for where to place treatment which are good starting points but they are starting points and don't suit everyone, and they also don't talk too much about how much absorption to put at each point.
Experiment and you'll learn a lot, not only about what works best for you but also about what you actually like. That's important information that helps whenever you start making changes in a system or room.
David Aiken
- RE: Some clues for you to work from - David Aiken 12:40:33 12/19/10
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- RE: Some clues for you to work from - The peleton 03:35:27 12/19/10
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- Some clues for you to work from - David Aiken 13:43:02 12/18/10
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