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In Reply to: RE: There's A Difference Between What Happens In Reality Andy posted by thetubeguy1954 on March 17, 2008 at 07:26:38
> You've never heard of something that in theory should work a certain way,
> yet when practically applied doesn't? [...] As if there a perfect driver
> to which only that one part of Newton's law applies Andy.
So Newton's second law only works in theory when applied to a perfect driver but when other factors such as gravity, friction, magnetic strength and damping is taken into account then it does not hold in reality?
Follow Ups:
Andy,
For you to ask this question: So Newton's second law only works in theory when applied to a perfect driver but when other factors such as gravity, friction, magnetic strength and damping is taken into account then it does not hold in reality? In light of what I previously posted proves to me either you're too ignorant to understand I've stated that's not what I believe or you're starting to behave like the weiner from Tampa and simply trying to provoke me --- which a moniker in a forum can't do --- or you're simply too afraid to argue this assinine POV with someone like Brian Cheney --- whom I notice you continue avoiding debating this topic with --- even though he could better answer your questions on the topic of why drivers don't stop as quickly as they stop. However that said the fact that almost all drivers flex and their suspensions store energy are two reasons I can think of why this problem might occur.
For one last time I'll attempt to explain this so even you'll understand me. If you continue to ask the same thing over & over I'll just ignore you after this. Newton's laws are always correct period. But your problem remains in the fact that you still want to pretend only this one part of Newton's law applicable in this equation when it's not, period! When a driver is being used other factors besides the one part of Newton's law you keep refering to needs to be considered. Newton's law of gravity which defines the attractive force between all objects that possess mass is another possibilty to consider of why drivers don't stop as quickly as they start.
As I previously explained quite clearly to you according Newton's law of gravity if we dropped a ball on a string, both the ball & string should drop, no? However if we took that same ball and string and grabbed the end of the string and began to spin it in a circle, centripetal force would become a factor that prevents the ball from falling to the ground ---as long as the ball is spun that is! Now Andy do you want to pretend that means I believe Newton's law of gravity has ceased to behave in reality as theory stated it would? I should hope not, but that's exactly what you're doing with my driver example!
With the ball & string --- just like with the driver above --- other additional factors, in this case it's --- centripetal force --- at that moment that's prevented the ball from instantly falling like the law of gravity stated it should. That's precisely what I'm stating is happening with a speaker's driver! Just like I realize "if" one applied the same force used to accelerate the loudspeaker in the opposite direction then it would slow down at the same rate it accelerated, I understand that other factors like perhaps gravity, friction, the size & strength of the driver's motors, or even always magnetic self-damping are preventing that from actually happening!
Now stop acting so ignorant, grow up and stop pretending you don't realise there are other factors which are preventing a driver from stopping as quickly as it starts!
Thetubeguy1954
A Rational Subjectivist
> Newton's laws are always correct period. But your problem remains in the
> fact that you still want to pretend only this one part of Newton's law
> applicable in this equation when it's not, period! When a driver is
> being used other factors besides the one part of Newton's law you keep
> refering to needs to be considered. Newton's law of gravity which
> defines the attractive force between all objects that possess mass is
> another possibilty to consider of why drivers don't stop as quickly as
> they start.
So Newton's laws hold always but Newton's second law is only part of an equation governing the motion of a speaker which should include the law of gravity?
Andy,
Grow up and stop playing games just this once will you? Why don't you just ask Brian Cheney who's someone who can honestly and intelligently answer all your questions on this topic? The answer to that question is very simple; You don't really want to know what the truth is --- you prefer instead to try and make yourself look intelligent by asking someone me, (instead of Brian Cheney) who's already admitted to you I don't really know what all the other factors are why drivers don't stop as quickly as they start. I do know drivers flex & their suspensions store energy but what the other factors are besides the one part of Newton's law you keep refering to that need to be considered, I don't know specifically what they are.
I've told you enough times now that your problem remains in the fact that you still want to pretend only one part of Newton's law applicable in this equation when it's not, period! Now if you honestly want to know what these additional factors are Andy you'll ask Brian Cheney! The very fact that you don't proves to me and everyone else here you're just playing childish games and that's something you can continue doing from this point on, without me!
Thetubeguy1954
A Rational Subjectivist
> The very fact that you don't proves to me and everyone else here you're
> just playing childish games and that's something you can continue doing
> from this point on, without me!
It is a pity that you have opted out rather than perserved but the thread has been informative in that you have put forward how you see things as an audiophile which is my main interest here and for that I thank you.
As a parting thought, if ribbon tweeters are so revealing of microdynamics and the cost of a tweeter is only a small fraction of the price of a loudspeaker why do so few loudspeaker designs use them? If you listen to a speaker with a conventional ribbon tweeter does it have a characteristic sound?
Andy,I have "opted out" as you put it simply because I don't wish to waste my time running around in circles continuing to discuss the same things over & over again with you. You already know my POV and I already know yours. So what's the purpose of my continuing the same arguement when you fail to see the error in your line of thinking? But even worse than that error is the fact that you've proven to me you don't honestly want to know what the answers to your questions are! This is easily proven to be true by the fact that you constantly refuse to ask the man here (Brian Cheney) who could provide the answers to your questions, but instead of asking Brian you badger me with questions I cannot answer. However that's typical LFO behavior so it hardly surprises me. Like most of your fellow LFOs you don't really want the answers to your questions. I honestly believed you prefered trying to make subjectivists look bad at all costs over finding the truth about the issues being discussed. However through this last post of yours I've come to realise your intentions were more insidious than that!
Andy I would have perserved and continued discussing this matter with you if you would have just acknowledged you understood like everyone else here understands that there are other factors besides just this part of Newton's law which states applying the same force to accelerate a loudspeaker's driver in the opposite direction will slow down it at the same rate it's accelerated. But you became fixated on that one single factor as if nothing else could possibly effect a driver like, gravity, cone flexing, storage of energy in a driver's suspension, magnetic self-damping or other factors I'm not even aware of , that are playing a part in why a driver doesn't stop as quickly as they starts! To me you Andy you were playing games, not attempting to logically discuss what really happens with a driver and I don't wish to be a part of your games, sorry.
Now that I've read your comment of: the thread has been informative in that you have put forward how you see things as an audiophile which is my main interest here I now realise you never actually wanted to honestly discuss what was happening with a driver --- which also explains why you never asked Brian Cheney about drivers --- instead you were studying me and my reactions. Sorry but after today I'll no longer be one of your "Guinea Pigs" used for studying. Andy you'll be hard pressed from this day forward to be able to prove to me --- and hopefully others here --- that you honestly want to discuss any audio issues. I'm quite offended that you felt you had the right to use me as a study aid. I hope others here feel the same way and stop responding to you like I'm now going to do!
So now about your " parting thought " I have nothing to say to you about that issue. This "Guinea Pig" is no longer one of your lab specimens available for study!
Thetubeguy1954
A Rational Subjectivist
If you listen to a speaker with a conventional ribbon tweeter does it have a characteristic sound?
Andy, quit playing childish games and just ask The Brain.
cheers,
AJ
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