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24.26.127.43
In Reply to: Unreliable tube amps? posted by E-Stat on December 20, 2006 at 18:06:49:
Next time? I have "listened" to all those brands, except Atma-Sphere.
What would that tell me about reliability?
Plus, can you or anyone else tell me how to audition an amp without borrowing or purchasing it? I'd really like to know.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Follow Ups:
then how can you make any judgement on reliability?It sounds like you confuse reliability with scheduled service. Obviously, tubes need to be replaced when they wear out. That ranges from three or four years for output tubes to as many as ten with low signal tubes. Such has nothing at all to do with reliability. Or else you consider every automobile ever made as "unreliable" because they wear out tires, brakes, need to get their oil changed, etc.
rw
"It sounds like you confuse reliability with scheduled service. Obviously, tubes need to be replaced when they wear out. That ranges from three or four years for output tubes to as many as ten with low signal tubes. Such has nothing at all to do with reliability."I find it funny that you call and or condider yourself an engineer. Since an engineer would know that what you said above has everything to do with reliability. Now, if the tubes last as you say, that would be very reliable. But the fact that the unit is down because you have to change tubes (whether scheduled or not) is the primary function that determines realibility.
I actually have one of those cheap chinese tube headphone amps for the office. Using a Denon cd player it was easy to hear the limitations. Just wondering out load if better tubes would help.
since it must be horribly unreliable. Why I have to take it out of service at least twice a year for oil changes. Any every two years, I have to completely replace the tires.rw
Not the point. Your tube amps may be very reliable even if you have to take it off line to change the tubes. How long does ti take the change the tubes if you have spares on hand? About 1 or two minutes. My point is that reliability is a function of MTBF and MTTR, but I guess that wasn't taught in the Grenada Polytech like it is here in the states.
It sounds like you confuse automobiles and amplifiers. A SS amp can go 20 yrs without any service. What automobile can do that? If one could, then yeah, I would consider it rather reliable.ES - Obviously, tubes need to be replaced when they wear out.
Correct. So since they offer no sonic benefits and cost more as well, why bother, other than for looks and/or heating in cold places?
Now, how does one audition an amplifier?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
AJinFLA states: It sounds like you confuse automobiles and amplifiers. No AJ it's you who has made that error. No one was speaking about automobiles but you.
===================================
A SS amp can go 20 yrs without any service. What automobile can do that? If one could, then yeah, I would consider it rather reliable.How in the name of GOD does that pertain to the issue of solid state vs SET amps? AJinFLA your thought process is completely out of wack -- as usual.
===================================
E-Stat said: Obviously, tubes need to be replaced when they wear out. To which AJinFLA replied Correct. So since they offer no sonic benefits and cost more as well, why bother, other than for looks and/or heating in cold places?Many people would disagree with you AJinFLA! For many people consider tubes to offer a considerable sonic benefit over transistors. Granted it's at an added cost, but when achieving the closet replication to live unamplified music is the goal, it's well worth the added cost.
===================================
This next question your raise, i.e. Now, how does one audition an amplifier? Really bothers me. If you're unable to know how to do this I question much of what you say about the "sound" of amplifiers for by your own words it becomes readily apparent you don't know how to deteremine what an amplifier sounds like in the first place!But I will answer your question. How one auditions an amplifier is actually quite simple.
1) First one assembles a complete system.
2) Then the person listens to that assembled system for an extended period of time. I like to use 3-months as point where one becomes intimately famailar with the assembled system.
3) After becoming intimately famailar with the assembled system, they replace ONLY the amplifier with an amplifier they wish to audition. Thus as ONLY the amplifier has been changed, any changes heard can be attributed to the amplifier.That's how one audtions an amplifier, preamp, CD player, interconnect etc. Like the Oracle told Neo, I'd have thought you would have fiqured that out by now.
Thetubeguy1954
I understand the distinction between the need for periodic service and reliability.So since they offer no sonic benefits and cost more as well, why bother, other than for looks and/or heating in cold places?
I guess you haven't spent much time with a really good one!
Now, how does one audition an amplifier?
That's a good question since I've never lived in Florida and am not aware of the opportunities there. It may not be easy today. Some dealers will allow you to borrow demo units if you "buy" it for a day. I befriended a truly honest dealer back in high school and gained exposure to hearing a number of different amplifiers. Either ones we sold - or ones the dealer considered selling. I confess that my greatest opportunities for hearing new stuff came later when I met two audio reviewers through my connection to that shop. That was almost thirty years ago.
Indeed, most of my most recent amplifier auditions have been with the reviewers who get access to all kinds of brands I had never heard before (or even heard of in order to form any sort of opinion). Let's see, that has included Halcro, VTL, Edge, Atma-Sphere, Joule-Electra, Krell, Burmester, Plinius, Conrad-Johnson, ASR, and ASL used in very nice systems. I wasn't really in the market for a new amp until I heard the Wotans recalibrate my perception of what an amplifier could do about five years ago.
rw
--
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
why not? BYOM. All of us here share a common interest, right?rw
When I listened, how would I isolate the "sound" of the Amplifier (which is what I am supposed to hear) from the:DACT attenuators using JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors
GamuT CD-1 with JPS Labs Digital AC
Dynavector DV-20XL cartridge, Souther TQ-1 linear arm, VPI Scout, VPI HW-1 isolation base, Audio Research SP-9 MK III preamp, VPI HW-16 record cleaning machine. DIY Audio power cords for table and preamp
Various JPS Labs Superconductor cables
Hospital grade outlets.And lest I forget the small stuff:
Sound Lab U-1s
(The room with)Six bass traps, two acoustic panels, and two fake ficus plants.I assume that you are not implying that none of these items conribute to the sound. Contrarily, they *all* do, which is why you carefully selected them in the first place. Audibility.
Exactly how would I "hear" the VTL's?
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
When I listened, how would I isolate the "sound" of the Amplifier (which is what I am supposed to hear)...You can't. Russ already answered for me. I have chosen components for their ability to get out of the way. Which one sounds more like live, unamplified music? I believe that you must first "explore" a given system in order to understand its capabilities and limitations. A day's worth of listening to most any system really won't tell you very much other than provide an initial impression. You also need to know what to listen for.
I'll give you an example. Following one of you-know-who's latest rants, I revisited a test I've conducted many times in the past. I took my Behringer analog EQ and ran it full range with the Advent system. My experience has been that those kind of units affect the highest frequencies. I used a piece of music with a very clearly recorded bell that is struck. With the EQ in the circuit and run flat the bell "fattens", loses focus and some of the subtle decay. More mechanical. Not a night and day difference, but significant to me. I'll put it back in use with the HT subwoofers where it causes no harm.
rw
Come now AJ, the answer is too simple. Don't you ever compare things in your system? Perhaps something as simple as a recording on one label compared to another?Of course all of those things contribute to sound. Frankly based simply on that list I would automatically assume his amps are "good" (and I am not a VTL fan as they often run tubes way over specs).
I don't understand the lack of mutual respect in this forum. Aren't we all part of the same group, if not the same camp?
Russ
To audition his or any other amp, I need to bring my own along?
So this is how you and all the other subjectivists audition amplifiers? You bring your own amp along? Why have I never heard of this method before? Why did E-Stat not tell me to do so? Did it slip his mind? BYOM means Bring Your Own Amp? I thought he mean *M*usic, or specifically, recordings which I am familiar with. How does *M* stand for Amp?
So all the reviewers and folks who attend audio shows and go to hi-end stores and talk about how they hear this amplifier and that amplifier and how great they sounded - all took their own amps along?
And all forgot to mention this?
Why did TB54 never mention anything about bringing an amp with me to audition his Mastersound? Did he forget too?Ru57 - Frankly based simply on that list I would automatically assume his amps are "good"
They didn't teach that sort of logic in Engineering school when I attended. I wouldn't assume so.
Ru57 - Of course all of those things contribute to sound.
I wouldn't assume that either. But lets assume that this is true shall we. *ALL* contribute to the sound. I subtract the VTLs and add Amp X.
I hear better sound. Is my amp better sounding? Or does my amp "synergize" better with all the other sound contributing parts?I hear worse sound. Is my amp worse sounding? Or does my amp "synergize" worse with all the other sound contributing parts?
Perhaps it doesn't play well with a particular power cord upstream. Or maybe its allergic to fake plastic plants? Can't my amp still be better sounding, but just worse with this particular brew of contributing sound thingamagigs?I hear no difference. The system lacks the necessary resolution. I'm deaf or simply lack the proper ear/brain training that comes from seeing different components (even though I listen to and have listened to plenty of live unamplified/amplified music as stated before). I lack self-confidence in my aural perceptive abilities (one of my faves).
The amps sound no or too subtle different (an obvious impossibility since they look so different/cost so different).I guess I just don't have good enough hearing to block out the nineteen or so sound contributors and isolate the sound of an amp
when all twenty are playing at once. I'll keep your listening by subtraction method handy next time I consider "hearing" an amp.
BTW, do you know how freakin' heavy my QSC amp is? I guess I'll need something a bit lighter to tote when I head for a hi-end show/store.
Thanks for the info.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
First off, I have no idea what a subjectivists is nor do I care to know (but I think I have been insulted). Next, you are making too much of my comment. You asked a very specific question and I gave an appropriate answer. Now you are trying to apply my comments in a generalized manner. However yes, if your main goal was to see if the amp you already own is better than another amp, then it might be wise. I often bring equipment when I visit others for informal listening sessions. It is a way for all of us to get a chance to hear new and different things.When I see someone that has invested a lot of time and effort in their system, and owns some very highly regarded stuff, I tend to feel they have a nice sounding system without ever hearing it. It is like an engineer being able to look at different solutions (or plans/schematics) to a problem and knowing that while all will "work" some will be "better". I can see his gear and therefore know his approach and see it as better (than most). That is all. And of course that is only my opinion, just as it would "only be an opinion" if an engineer claimed a certain approach was best but the bean counters said otherwise.
As to room treatments and cables, I only agreed to allow your theory that things like that matter and now you are claiming I said that was so (and they do matter some). Are you really an engineer from Florida because you talk like some damn Yankee lawyer Sir? :) As far as your question, all I can say is now you see why many say you simply must have something in your home for a month to really judge it.
I suggest you look up "dunker factor" with regards to low wattage tube amps if you think a QSC is heavy for the watts. Heck I have 70's vintage rice rockets that weigh more per watt. I bet this guy’s little old SET with all of 40something watts weighs more. Dang now I can see why everyone is so pissy around here.
But hey, if you have gotten this far, for the record and all, I like push-pull; I use active crossovers, pro audio drivers for speakers, and a solid-state amp for bass. But I won’t give up tubes and vinyl. It is an engineering solution and you pick your poison as any solution has its weak points. Different folks have different needs and tastes and prefer different compromises.
But yes, some can easily hear differences between amps. The QSC is at best, suited only for low bass duty in a home hi-fi setting. That statement can be defended solely on circuit design and parts quality.
Why look at tube guy’s gracious offering as a challenge and need to defend your position when it could, instead, be a door to a new friendship and an enlightenment of your audio hobby? I recently was enlightened with regards to speakers and it has changed my audio direction. You never know until you try and stranger things have happened.
Russ
Russ,glad you felt the need to answer my question posed to E-Stat. Figured he needed the help I suppose? Saw that he had forgotten to tell me to bring my own amp when I came to listen to his VTL's? Of course you didn't raise the issue until after I did, but maybe E-Stat would have remembered eventually as well. Maybe TG54 also. Who knows?
You may well hear the difference in sound in *all* of the above, including the fake plastic plants. There are those with hearing abilities to perceive what mere mortals cannot. Congrats.
R57 - Are you really an engineer from Florida
Nope. Never claimed to be.
R57 - But yes, some can easily hear differences between amps.
Yes, some people can see ghosts too, because they have superior visual perception/training. Or claim to. So what?
R57 - The QSC is at best, suited only for low bass duty in a home hi-fi setting
To be honest, that is where it is slotted in my quad amplified system. If my system was passive, full ranged, I would not hesitate to use it there either, just like Tom Danley uses his QSC. Have you informed Danley about the misuse of his QSC?
R57 - That statement can be defended solely on circuit design and parts quality.
Since you are the engineer, please explain this statement in technical/scientific terms. I'd love to see it, as I'm sure Tomservo would also.
R57 - I recently was enlightened with regards to speakers and it has changed my audio direction.
Heck, seems this board is all about "enlightenment". Maybe you could share with me your enlightenment about speakers the way TG54 wants to enlighten me about amps. If we get a turntable/wire expert to chime in, it might be my day of enlightenment indeed.
cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"Why look at tube guy’s gracious offering as a challenge and need to defend your position when it could, instead, be a door to a new friendship and an enlightenment of your audio hobby? I recently was enlightened with regards to speakers and it has changed my audio direction. You never know until you try and stranger things have happened."Why do you feel that AJinFLA needs enlightment? do you know how he arrived at his choice of amplifiers, congratulations at your enlightment but presuming that some other party will receive great enlightment by listening to a particular rig with any background knowledge about their particular circumstances is naive.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Russ,You asked a very good question of AJinFLA, i.e. Why look at tube guy’s gracious offering as a challenge and need to defend your position when it could, instead, be a door to a new friendship and an enlightenment of your audio hobby?
As you've probably noticed by now AJinFLA doesn't want to learn anything new because he thinks he already has all the answers. I quite graciously (at first) offered him to hear a system based on a very highend and well respected integrated SET amp, the Mastersound Reference 845. In response to my generous offer AJinFLA did nothing but insult & berated me and then disparage my choices in audio components. Here's just one of his comments about my amp...
"Every one of those SET pieces of junk that I have heard have sounded awful. Just don't ask their owners. Their feeble, clock radio output requires ridiculous compromises in speaker design. No thanks. The 40 or so watts of your Mastersound *might* hack it for my tweeter or super tweeter amps in a pinch."
Did you notice how he responded to your well intentioned response of how to audition a single audio component like an amp? Everyone knows the end result of an audio system is a gestalt of the components used. However everyone also knows that if you listen to a system for an extended time you'll know how it "sounds!" Then when you change ANY one component, which in this case would be an amp, after changing it you listen again & the changes heard (if any) would be attributed to the different component installed. Thus you'd have a good idea of the "sound" of that component!
Granted it would be best to use that amp in 2 or 3 different systems to make sure there isn't a mismatch in one of the systems. But that's the way most, if not all people determine the "sound" of a single component.
To hear AJinFLA whine about how heavy his QSC amp is (I went online and their heaviest amp I could locate was the ISA800Ti at 63LBS! Most weigh in at around 21LBS) as opposed to my 135LB amp is just one more way he's using excuses not to have his QSC seen for the horrible sounding amp it is. Like you said, it's a good subwoofer amp, but that's it.
Russ just keep watching AJinFLA's posts and you'll soon discover he just likes to argue with those who use tubes. Heck he doesn't even really argue, because that would imply discussing something. AJinFLA doesn't really do anything but constantly berate the people who disagree with his audio religon and then disparge their audio components. In any event, now you know.
I look forward to having you over one day...
Thetubeguy1954
When you first asked how to audition an amp, I talked about finding dealers and friends in your area. Further suggested that the best way was to get a loaner to hear in your own system.The second question asked how you could isolate the sound of an amp within a system. Yes, indeedy that takes another point of reference. This is not a complicated concept.
rw
E-Stat,I just have to comment on AJinFLA's question: How Does One Audtion An Amplifier? Well by making friends and not disparaging every amplifier that's isn't your idea of what a good amp should be! At one time I offered AJinFLA the chance to come and hear a highend well-respected SET and he just mocked me for doing so.
That chance has now passed. Perhaps AJinFLA will never get the chance to audition a really good SET amp again, I don't know. But I doubt he'll get many opportunities with how he berates everyone and disparages every component that doesn't fit into his audio world view here on A.A. I know he'd never be welcome in my home and my home is open to just about everyone and anyone.
Thetubeguy1954
I'd love to hear your system. I am a push pull tube guy and need to hear a good SET. I am working on speakers too and think a SET would make sense for the treble amp. Of course it would more likely be a 45 than a 845:)
Russ
Russ,You'd be more than welcome to come over for a listen. I've just about completely finished stripping on RCA LC9A and plan on completing and starting the othet over the Christmas vacation. If AJinFLA wasn't such a horses pa-toot he'd have been welcome as well.
Thetubeguy1954
TB54 - If AJinFLA wasn't such a horses pa-toot he'd have been welcome as well.Tom, I'm giving you a chance to prove to me and educate me that your system is as good as you say and others have confirmed (as you said).
Why no forgiveness for your fellow audiophile in the season of giving? Hopefully doubt has not began to creep in. If it is as good as you say, how could I not like it?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
AJinFLA,I'm sure this is just another attempt to berate me and disparage my components yet once again. I find it hard to believe you honestly wish to come and listen with an open mind. When just this last Tuesday you said: "Every one of those SET pieces of junk that I have heard have sounded awful. Just don't ask their owners. Their feeble, clock radio output requires ridiculous compromises in speaker design. No thanks. The 40 or so watts of your Mastersound *might* hack it for my tweeter or super tweeter amps in a pinch."
As you're an proponent of a listeners bias and preferences influencing what they hear, how can you possibly listen with an open mind when you firmly believe every one of those SETs is a piece of junk? Wouldn't that in itself prejudice your from listening fairly? Let alone the fact that you also believe the 40 or so watts of my Mastersound *might* hack it for your tweeter or super tweeter amps in a pinch!
AJinFLA you claim you're giving me a chance to prove to you and educate you that my system is as good as I said and others have confirmed. From all your past attacks on me and my equipment I believe this may just be a ruse to come and listen and then no matter what you really believe afterwards, come back and post on PHP that you've heard my system and it sucks!
At the same time this is the season of giving and forgiving. So yes I'll allow by-gones to be by-gones. If you sincerely wish to hear what my system sounds like, then if and when I see you posting like someone who truly wishes to broaden their horizons I'll extend you the offer to hear it once again. I'm sorry AJinFLA but considering our past that's the best I can do right now.
Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
Then I won't waste my time and come over. If you still believe that you have a world class system, then your invitation should still stand. I find it interesting that you never mentioned me having to bring an amp before. But now that I have raised the issue of the obvious impossibility of hearing yours without hearing the rest of the system, I have several to choose from, one a lot less heavy than the QSC, which I could bring with me. Along with my laptop/mobilepre/mic. Are you still game? There is no other way for me to hear your system unless I listen to it, is there?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"when I see you posting like someone who truly wishes to broaden their horizons I'll extend you the offer to hear it once again. I'm sorry AJinFLA but considering our past that's the best I can do right now."Broaden their horizons? You are too funny....The last time I listened in on a SET amplifier, I was glad to get back home and relax in front of my own rig. On the other hand, ask your amp manufacturer about the paucity in their specs. Sure, there are some decent ones around, but will I take them over and above a decent sand amplifier, No!
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Hobby,You're the one who's too funny. If you think I'm stupid enough to take the bait from someone who just 3 days ago said in reference to my amp...
"Every one of those SET pieces of junk that I have heard have sounded awful. Just don't ask their owners. Their feeble, clock radio output requires ridiculous compromises in speaker design. No thanks." and "The 40 or so watts of your Mastersound *might* hack it for my tweeter or super tweeter amps in a pinch." And now 3 days later I'm supposed to believe that AJinFLA will come over and visit with an open mind? Now that idea is also too funny!
As AJinFLA has been a proclaimed proponent a listeners bias and preferences influencing what they hear, how can he possibly listen with an open mind when he firmly believes every one of those SETs is a piece of junk? Wouldn't that in itself prejudice AJinFLA from listening fairly? Let alone the fact that he also believes the 40 or so watts of my Mastersound *might* hack it for your tweeter or super tweeter amps in a pinch!
Now I'm supposed to believe from the kindness of heart AJinFLA is giving me a chance to prove to him and educate him that my system is as good as I said and others have confirmed? Yes Hobby you're too funny if you think I'll believe that post was sincere. From all AJinFLA's past attacks on me and my equipment I believe this is a ruse to come and listen and then no matter what AJinFLA really believes afterwards, he'll come back and post on PHP that he's heard my system and it sucks!
Yes hobby you are way too funny....I noticed you don't mention what SET you listened to the last time. I looked at your "rig" you've got nice speakers and SHARP is the perfect name for your digital amp. I haven't heard a good (good in that it really sounds like live unamplified music) digital amp yet. So if that sharp digital sound makes glad to get back home and can actually relax in front of your own rig with it's very noticeable digital sound, all the best to ya. But personally I think you'd best ask Santa for some new ears for Christmas!
The problem is you've only heard decent SETs from what you say. The Mastersound is a world-class SET. How many SETs of that caliber have you heard, hmmmmmm? So keep your SHRAPNEL digital amp. As for me I'll stay with my Mastersound, at least it sounds like live unamplified music should!
I think the loss of Unsoundmind has really gotten to you. But thanks for posting. I needed the laugh.
Thetubeguy1954
"I noticed you don't mention what SET you listened to the last time.I looked at your "rig" you've got nice speakers and SHARP is the perfect name for your digital amp. I haven't heard a good (good in that it really sounds like live unamplified music) digital amp yet."
So you have not heard a good digital amp? So what and who cares! As we say over here what does that have to do with a hill of beans?
"But personally I think you'd best ask Santa for some new ears for Christmas! "
Too funny!!! I see that you are finding it hard to accept that we do not care for your SET amplifier not for your ridiculous justification, LOL!!
"I think the loss of Soundmind has really gotten to you."
Certainly, his mind was cerainly more sound than yours, at least his contributions are valuable, which cannot be said about your posts, which are choke full of angst and self-justification.
NB: Your comments in and themselves illustrate the value of DBTs, Have you ever heard the Audiostatics in person? Somehow I doubt it.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Hobby,You're acting more like Pat D-Cake everyday. I remember when he LIED and claimed he knew I never actually listened to his Paradigm Sig. S2's and now you're claiming you doubt I've ever heard a pair of Audiostatics!
A friend on mine in Gainsville Fla owns Audiostatics and I've had the pleasure to hear them in his own home via hybrid preamp & poweramps he designed. So sorry Hobby, but your doubt is incorrect!
Now as for this remark you made: "So you have not heard a good digital amp? So what and who cares! As we say over here what does that have to do with a hill of beans?" It has a much to do with a hill of beans and matters as much as when you say "The last time I listened in on a SET amplifier, I was glad to get back home and relax in front of my own rig." The only difference is I say outright what I mean i.e. I have not heard a good digital amp, instead of implying what I mean like you did about SET amps, by being glad to get back home and relax in front of your own rig.
I care less about your opinion of SETs than you care about my opinion of digital amps. For as much as you claim you don't care what I think about your digital amp. I notice that you keep having to feed your insatiable desire to tell us how much better (in your opinion) a digital amp is as opposed to an SET amp. Sometimes it's hard to face yourself and accept the truth huh, hobby? Apparently you do care what I think about your beloved Sharp digital amp. I think the insecurity lies in you and your wondering how one could pay so much and get so little (parts and soundwise) for a digital amp!
But what's really too, too funny!!! Is your belief that I am finding it hard to accept that you do not care for my SET amplifier. There's two reasons this is so very very funny, #1) I'll bet you've never heard the Mastersound Reference 845 amp so how could you kjnow if you would or wouldn't like it? & #2) With all the people who have come over, listened to my setup and then tell me how it's one of the best setups they've ever heard in anyone's home. I find it outrageousely funny that you believe I'd be bothered by the opinions of those who haven't heard it. Now for that I'm ROTFLMAOPMP!!
Finally if you are going to quote me quote what I actually said, not what you want me to have said ok? What I actually said was: "I think the loss of Unsoundmind has really gotten to you. But thanks for posting. I needed the laugh." Yes I called him UNsoundmind for anyone who believes that a BSR Equalizer and a Citation 11 preamp is as good as anything being made today, truly is speaking with an UNsoundmind!
Thanks again for another good laugh. Be back online this Wednesday morning!
Thetubeguy1954
Tsk! Tsk!Something must really be bothering you.
I have definitively refuted your vicious allegations against me in the post linked below.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
"I care less about your opinion of SETs than you care about my opinion of digital amps. For as much as you claim you don't care what I think about your digital amp. I notice that you keep having to feed your insatiable desire to tell us how much better (in your opinion) a digital amp is as opposed to an SET amp. Sometimes it's hard to face yourself and accept the truth huh, hobby? Apparently you do care what I think about your beloved Sharp digital amp.What "truth" is there to face? That you are sitting on a technical discussion board, not saying much certainly nothing of technical value.
" think the insecurity lies in you and your wondering how one could pay so much and get so little (parts and soundwise) for a digital amp"
It always boils down to this, attempting pass off your subjective opinion and value judgement on someone else. pitiful...
"I'll bet you've never heard the Mastersound Reference 845 amp so how could you know if you would or wouldn't like it? "
Neither have you heard the Sharp digital amplifier, but then again logic was not your strong point.
"With all the people who have come over, listened to my setup and then tell me how it's one of the best setups they've ever heard in anyone's home"
The mantra of many audiophiles "listened to my setup and then tell me how it's one of the best setups they've ever heard", is that why you are on a crusade to "educate" us? NFB SET produce copious amount of distortion and have much higher output impedance, those are facts. That you and those who have heard your system claim to like what hear (assuming they were not just being polite and told you what you wanted to hear) does not negate those facts.
I suggest you find something else to do cos you will be hard pushed to find anything new to say about SETs that is objectively useful because it is an obsolete technology with as much relevance to SOTA as a steam engine i.e. a novelty and an oddity.
And I am certainly not bothered about you think about my amplifier cos I am doing the listening not you, nice try from you though...
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Hobby,You're becoming more like Pat D-Cake every passing day. Now you want to place your attributes on me? Let's go over this post of yours Hobby?
When I said that sometimes it's hard to face yourself and accept the truth huh, hobby? Apparently you do care what I think about your beloved Sharp digital amp. You asked me what "truth" is there to face? The "truth" is that digital amps aren't capable of replicating music that "sounds" like live unamplified music. That's the "truth" I was talking about. Except for the few who have mistaken the characteristic digital sound as somehow being correct, no one believes digital amps have succeeded in overcoming their quite obvious shortcomings when it comes to replicating music that "sounds" anything like live unamplified music. When that is combined with how expensive digital amps are for how little you get (their weight is not usually much) I'd feel ripped off paying thousands of dollars for a few LBS of parts that sound unlike what music truly "sounds" like when it's live unamplified music!
Then Hobby you espouse that I'm sitting on a technical discussion board, not saying much certainly nothing of technical value. When you're simply the pot calling the kettle black! For it's not beneath you to act the very same way. A perfect example of this would be when you stated, I'd hard pushed to find anything new to say about SETs that is objectively useful because it is an obsolete technology with as much relevance to SOTA as a steam engine i.e. a novelty and an oddity. I suppose you feel that comment is of some technical value, huh? But it's like you said, it always boils down to this when talking with people like yourself. In the longrun you're just attempting pass off your subjective opinion and value judgement on someone else. Yes that is pitiful Hobby, to blame and judge others for what you yourself do!
Now when I stated "I'll bet you've never heard the Mastersound Reference 845 amp so how could you know if you would or wouldn't like it?" I did that after you mistakenly stated you believed I'd never heard the Audiostatics, which I had. So as you questioned whether I heard your speakers I questioned if you had heard the Mastersound, which if IIRC has only 1 or 2 US dealers! To that you responded like a child would, "Neither have you heard the Sharp digital amplifier..." nah, nah na nah na! Next you follow that childish retort by claiming my asking that question when I've not heard the Sharp amp somehow means logic is not my strong point. How can you believe that statement is anything but absurd? Especially after you asked me (mistakenly) whether I'd ever heard the Audiostatics! I guess if asking such a question proves one doesn't use logic as strong point then logic isn't your strong point either huh, Hobby?
I believe what really bothers you Hobby is that many people have come over, listened to my setup and then told me how it's one of the best setups they've ever heard in anyone's home! See Hobby I NEVER ask anyone (except close audio friends) what they think of my system, the info is usually volunteered after I ask what the expression on their face means. Afterall the expression could mean they cannot stand what they hear just as easily as anything else, no? So I take my chances by asking. I believe it just kills you to own a $15K Sharp SM-SX100 digital integrated amplifier and not have people tell you that huh, so that's why you get so defensive! I suppose I can your audio defense mechinism. I can understand why it bothers you when after hearing an amp that costs 1/2 what yours does, has what you believe is copious amount of distortion and a much higher output impedance, which I suppose "could" be the facts, people who've heard it's proclaims it's capable of replicating music that truly "sounds" like live unamplified music. I can see why that would bother you. "IF" I spent the $15K Sharp SM-SX100 digital integrated amplifier costs it my system sounded like that I'd be upset as well!
Another defense mechanism I see is your need to believe that my friends and myself who have heard my system are being "polite" when they claim to like what they/we hear. Unlike yourself and the people you call friends, my friends and I don't lie to each other and call it politeness! You see Hobby we all want a system that is as capable of replicating music that truly "sounds" like live unamplified music as we can assemble. Thus we honestly tell each other what we do and don't like about what we hear when we listen to each others systems. So perhaps what they say does not negate the facts that SOME SET amps produce copious amount of distortion and have a much higher output impedance, but it DOES put any comment that comes from someone who hasn't heard my system, isn't my friend and certainly isn't out to help me have a system that capable of replicating music that truly "sounds" like live unamplified music, in its proper prespective doesn't it?
Finally for someone who constantly insists they are certainly not bothered about I think about their amplifier because they are doing the listening not me, I'd say it's an unlogical statement in light of your need to defend your choices and constantly have the last word. If you really didn't care, you would care about what I said and thus not respond to it! But like you said Hobby nice try from you though...
Thetubeguy1954
all this diatribes because I said that I do not care for SET amplifiers, you really have a BIG problem with insecurity.I suggest you learn how to differentiate between opinion and facts, In all this diatribe, you did not even attempt once to use some facts to buttress your opinion, however it is the "TRUTH".
I can understand why it bothers you when after hearing an amp that costs 1/2 what yours does, has what you believe is copious amount of distortion and a much higher output impedance, which I suppose "could" be the facts, people who've heard it's proclaims it's capable of replicating music that truly "sounds" like live unamplified music. I can see why that would bother you"
What are you on? what are you saying? what episode are you talking about? Your imagination seems to be running in overdrive.
You have a BIG BIG problem, you appear unable to discuss issues rationally.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Like I said Hobby, for someone who constantly insists they are certainly not bothered about I think about their amplifier because they are doing the listening not me, I'd say it's an unlogical statement in light of your constant need to defend your choices and constantly have the last word. Truely, if you really didn't care, you would care about what I said and thus not respond to it! But that's obviously not the "truth" either, like you said Hobby nice try from you though...
Thetubeguy1954
"I'd say it's an unlogical statement in light of your constant need to defend your choices"Says the person who started a thread to "remove misconceptions about SETs", I wonder what your diatribes did to that cause.
"Truely, if you really didn't care, you would care about what I said and thus not respond to it! But that's obviously not the "truth" either, like you said Hobby nice try from you though..."
Perhaps it skipped your mind that you just spend the better part of a whole post attacking me directly, As far as I can see anybody who disagrees with your world view is subject to diatribes of ad hominem attacks.
As I said earlier and Pat D has found out, you seem incapable of rational judgement.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Tubey often seems to think that if someone doesn't believe his every word, that person must be lying!
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
As you can see from his asinine response, nothing much of value, just ad hominen attacks, so much for the "education" 8^).
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
I'm sure Stereophile was right and if I heard your Sharp amp because I'm a tube guy I'd find the digital amp a bit dry and lacking in harmonic complexity and bloom in the upper midrange, a bit dry in the mids, and maybe even somewhat aggressive on top, especially on bright-sounding recordings.Thetubeguy1954 8^)
Pat D-Cake,How you came to the conclusion in that warped mind of yours is truly beyond all logical thinking! I think a person is a liar when they lie, i.e. don't tell the truth. You apparently have mistaken your lying with my believing what you say.
There are many things you and others say here on PHP that I don't believe or agree with. When that happens I don't think you or anyone else here is a liar. However when you or anyone esle here states something and then later claim you didn't make that statement and I can prove you actually did make the statement in question. THAT'S when I'd call you or anyone else who did that I liar. See the difference? Probably not, but I tried...
Thetubeguy1954
Your definition of a lie is simply incorrect, or is this simply tubebuy English:"I think a person is a liar when they lie, i.e. don't tell the truth."
To a lie is a deliberate false statement:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie
I have never lied to you, that is, made a deliberately false statement.
You attribute a whole list of things to me in the post linked below, but fail to document them. Indeed, you do not even bother to deny you havehas misquoted me, misunderstood me, engaged in patently illogical reasoning, used strawman arguments, etc.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D-Cake,You're lying i.e., deliberatly making a false statement in saying you've never lied to me! Or don't you remember the fiasco of claiming YOU KNEW I had never listened to Paradigm Signature S2's?
For everyone's refreshment of that series of LIES from Pat D-Cake just click in the link below....
Thetubeguy1954
Can you tell us how a question could be a claim or accusation yet?PAT D
"You mean like pretending to be familiar with my speakers when you are not?"http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22758.html
Well, I *can* answer that question actually, and will now show exactly how you managed it! You did it by the simple expedient of taking the question mark off the end and replacing it with a period, thus changing a question into a "statement". Oh yes!
TG54
"When you stated about me "You mean like pretending to be familiar with my speakers when you are not." was a blatant lie."http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22925.html
So there it is. You actually have misquoted me, changed my question into a statement, and engaged in a vicious attack filled with false allegations.
It must have enraged you that
And after that, you dare call me a liar, a hypocritical name coming from you.
Now let's look at your allegation that in Inmate Systems I said that the Paradigm Signature S2 had a response down to 20 Hz. I paid no attention to you when you made such assertions because I *knew* I had said no such thing: and I was right. Proof follows: here is what was actually said in my system under "System Strengths" and remember, too, that my system has a large 15 inch subwoofer!
PAT D
"System Strengths:
Smooth accurate response, excellent stereo imaging, deep bass response to below 20 Hz, more than adequate volume levels. These are the best speakers I have had and as good as anything I have ever heard."So it was your "blatant lie" when you stated that I said anything about the Paradigm S2 monitor speakers going down to below 20 Hz. The "system" certain goes below 20 Hz, but I never said the S2 did.
Why don't you stop your vile, vicious campaign of lies and innuendos against me?
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D-Cake,Unlike you, lying, being decptive, planning on waiting, hope others will forget what I've said and then bring up a completely new mode of denial is not something I'm adept at!
Now that you've thought about this LIE of yours since September 8, 2006 at 09:00:18 yet one more way to deny what you actually meant. Back then you didn't proclaim what you're now trying to claim. Oh no, back then it was just about every other excuse you can think of, such as:
"Well, when you suggested they had response down to 20 Hz or so, I wondered about that. Now you say they are mini-monitors." http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22777.html
"But you now say you have heard the Paradigm Signature S2, but you showed no inkling in the link below that it was a small standmount monitor but accepted the 20 Hz figure without comment. What WAS I to think?"
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22780.html"No, from the text, you clearly accepted the response down to 20 Hz of a mini-monitor. You did not question it. Surely an honest person, well-meaning person would point out the discrepancy IF he knew about it. But you did not question it. In mythology, there is a figure called "the Trickster." You fit." Like I said before you claimed to be tricked!
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22957.htmlHere again you claim to be tricked "You are the one who chose gratuitously to insert a discussion of my speakers into the thread, not me. You were simply trying to provoke me. Now you try to shift that responsibility on to me. Another trick. Again, I have offered no opinion on your Aliante speakers, it is you who imply I have--another transparent trick."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23065.htmlOnce again Pat's back to claiming he's was tricked into lying about his speakers and he even has another justification for LYING "(I was) simply trying to provoke (him). So I guess provoking justifies lying in Pat's mind. But what about his when he claimed I said Aliante's the standard I used for for smoothness and accuracy in speakersand NOT live music as I actually said? Was Pat provoked or tricked once again? What ever happened to be responsible for one's actions? Let's continue on and see where Pat takes this in defense of his being a LIAR!
So your first excuse was, what where you to think. Then you admit you knew you were being quoted but now your excuse for LYING is I tricked you into lying!
Back then you tried this excuse as well: "Actually, I would say you were pretending NOT to be familiar with my speakers when you were." as seen here: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.html
Then you tried to intimidate me via "So again, I still offer my sincere advice not to go down that line. Pity you misunderstood the remark."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlIn another attempt to intimidate me you say "Maybe I should go back and find things you wrote months ago, rip them out of context, interpret them however I please, and . . . Oh, but I wouldn't even have to do that! I could just be honest about them.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlBut that's yet another of your Pat D-Caker LIES. The ONLY way you could make it appear I lied was to actually rip my words out of context and interpret them however you please, but that's NOT what I did to you Pat. I quoted you verbatim, in context. In fact we saw you bring that very threat into action by doing what you threated to do above. Pat you actually do rip my words out of context and interprets them however you please. Witness below...
Pat D-Cake you LIED when you claimed this is what I said:
TOM "Even a direct comparison to the Aliante's showed how much the Paradigm S2 deviated from a flat & smooth response." Then he tells yet another LIE and says If you wish to regard your Aliante speakers as the standard for smoothness and accuracy in speakers, go right ahead.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlFor this is what I actually said:
"1) Smooth accurate response (The Paradigm's were more than a tad bright, but it did have an Aluminum tweeter, so that could explain it! USING LIVE MUSIC AS A STANDARD (emphasis mine), the Paradigm S2 are hardly providing a smooth & accurate response. Even a direct comparison to the Aliante's showed how much the Paradigm S2 deviated from a flat & smooth response.) http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22970.html
Notice how you're LYING Pat D-Cake? You actually did go back and find things I wrote rips them out of context, interpret them however you pleased! Yet you said above: Oh, but I wouldn't even have to do that! I could just be honest about them. Then did what you stated you wouldn't have to do!
Pat D-Cake what you're really being deceptive about is this series of LIES from you started a lot earlier when I mentioned comparing my Aliantes to your Paradigms. I'm sorry but you are getting really quite tiring. You lie so much, so easily that I don't choose to keep up with them all. Granted many others are easier on you calling you "Slippery Pat" and making references to your non-postions. To continue this any further would be a waste of space here and my time.
Anything else you read into that is just that, you reading into it with your warped, LYING mind.Thetubeguy1954
Errrr . . . tubebuy, you have to prove that I lied in the first place before you can establish that I tried to make excuses for it! You utterly failed to do that, and in fact, what you have done is to turn a question into a statement. The following is, after all, a question: ""You mean like pretending to be familiar with my speakers when you are not?" I was, explicitly, asking if that would be an example of lie. You keep referring to this as a statement or claim, which means you lied about its nature, which was a question.Then, you falsely stated that I had said the Paradigm Signature S2 mini-monitor had a response to below 20 Hz. I had said no such thing and the quotation from Inmate Systems under System Strenghts showed that I said no such thing.
You misquoted me, you explicitly said a question was a "statement" or "claim," and that is the only way you could change a question into a false statement.and you have falsely accused me of saying my speakers went down to below 20 Hz. all that is irrefutable and I have proved it. No, I'm not the one who's been lying, you are.
Now, changing the subject, you want me to believe the silly claim that your standard for comparing your speakers to mine was "live music." Well, you have never claimed to have done a live vs. recorded comparison with them so it would be too late to start claiming it now. No one would believe you. So, there goes another of your allegations shot down in flames.
NUMEROUS UNDOCUMENTED ALLEGATIONS
So, why don't you document the many allegations you have been making against me in posts like the one at the following URL, instead of changing the subject:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/27275.html
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D-Cake,You're probably asking for citations because of what you believe! You stated in a recent post I can't find older posts by thetubeguy1954, either.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=prophead&n=27337&highlight=Pat+D&r=&session=So as you feel many of my posts have ben removed you're now comfortable demanding proof of something you actually said, but now denying saying. Which by the way is # 6 below: 6) Claim he didn't say something he said. This in and of itself proves my point that 1-10 are YOUR dirty tricks which you deny doing!
In addition to that you don't even know what lying really is! In your warped mind you believe not telling the truth is not the same thing as making a a deliberate false statement! For you stated that very thing in so many words in this post:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=prophead&n=27294&highlight=Pat+D&r=&session=Next you try to weasel out of all your lies and dirty tricks but claiming in this post:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=prophead&n=27289&highlight=Pat+D&r=&session=Where you lying Pat D-Cake claimed Please the following information:
1) Please provide documentation for your points 1-10 and a-d. (see below for a reference of 1-10 & A-D)
2) Please prove that I was wrong in each case.
1) Claim he's being misquoted
2) Claim he's being quoted out of context
3) Claim he's misunderstood
4) Claim he's being attacked, deceived or tricked etc
5) Claim his opponent doesn't think logically
6) Claim he didn't say something he said
7) Switch the actual topic to what he wants to debate
8) Blame others of doing the things he does”
9) Make untrue claims like he's already proven that, when he hasn't
10)Ignore the questions he's askedPat D-Cakes warped logic is if you didn't quote him word-for-word he didn't say what you wrote! But if you do quote him word-for-word he'll claim either 1, 2, 3 or 4 above. Either way Pat has a way out. In addition to this Pat D-Cake will usually follow one of four basic methods operation. Usually by combining 1-10 above into one of four typical defensive mechnisms.
a) Blame others, Claim being misunderstood, deceived or tricked if unable to outright deny something & then switch the topic.
b) Place his attributes on his opponents, start whining and claiming he's either being quoted out of context, misquoted, misunderstood or attacked and then switch from the actual topic being discussed.
c) Just ignore what his opponent said and either 1) insults them, 2) ask a question that's already been answered, while claiming it's never been answered and then 3) switch from the actual topic being discussed.
d) Claim the opponents can't think logically and start blaming them of creating strawman arguements or claim they've proven nothing and then switch from the actual topic being discussed.
For PROOF of these things one only needs to read these references below to see some of Pat D's dirty tricks! As Pat D-Cake is denying he does 1-10 above I'll just prove one of them. #4 is Pat D claims he's being attacked, deceived or tricked etc So for proof of Pat D-Cake claiming to be tricked which he's denying he does above, just continue reading....
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You LIED Pat when you claimed you knew I was pretending to be familiar with your speakers when I actually wasn't. In fact you entitled your post "You mean like pretending to be familiar with my speakers when you are not?" http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22758.htmlBut rather than admit you made a mistake when you lied, you attempted to justify your LIE with these words "Well, when you suggested they had response down to 20 Hz or so, I wondered about that. Now you say they are mini-monitors." http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22777.html
Pat I told you more than once I was repeating what YOU said in Inmates Systems. What could be simplier to understand than that? How repeating what you said somehow gets transfered into my believing what you said amazes me. Quoting someone isn't agreeing with what they said Pat, it's ONLY quoting them. In fact quoting someone can be used to actually hurt them with their own words. That's exactly what I was attempting to do with you! I just couldn't believe that was your honest opinion of the S2's. By the way I've noticed you changed how you've worded your comments in Inmates Systems now Pat!
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22778.htmlI also made every attempt to make my actions to you very clear. For in the post entitled YOUR EXACT WORDS I stated inside that post that I was using YOUR WORDS, not mine! So how you can constantly claim to have been tricked is beyond my ability to comprehend. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22779.html
It appears you'd rather just LIE than admit you made a mistake. You continue to try to blame me for your actions. You're acting as if I hadn't told you previously I compared the S2's and the Ones side-by-side and found the S2 lacking! Yet even after reading that previous post of mine and the two posts in this thread that tell you I've compared them, you still try to justify your LIES with this comment "But you now say you have heard the Paradigm Signature S2, but you showed no inkling in the link below that it was a small standmount monitor but accepted the 20 Hz figure without comment. What WAS I to think?"
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22780.htmlWhat were you to think Pat? You were to think I was quoting YOUR EXACT WORDS like I told you I was! (See link above) You even admit you know I was quoting you for you state "But thank you for pointing out the ambiguity. I have modified the entry to make it clear what refers to the system, which includes a big subwoofer, and what refers to the main speakers." So Pat you KNEW I was quoting you, but you just couldn't stand the fact that I caught you in a LIE. Worse than that you don't have the inetgrity ot strength of character to admit you were wrong!
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22780.htmlWhat's really disappointing is not only do you admit above you knew I was quoting you when you thank me for pointing out the ambiguity of your post so you modified the entry to make it more clear. But even more to the point I told you SPECIFICALLY I was qouting what YOU SAID in YOUR OWN WORDS, when I posted "Pat why do you care when your Paradigm S2's HAVE AS YOU SAY smooth accurate response, excellent stereo imaging, deep bass response to below 20 Hz and more than adequate volume levels. What part of "AS YOU SAY" didn't you understand? I NEVER said that was my opinion of them, I NEVER said I agreed with your opinion, but rather specifically stated, it was only repeating the qualities of the S2's "AS YOU SAY" they are.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22925.htmlPerhaps you should try increasing your reading comprehension skills Pat?
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At this point do you relent? Does Pat D finally admit he LIED, no! Instead you continue to try and justify your LIES with statement "No, from the text, you clearly accepted the response down to 20 Hz of a mini-monitor. You did not question it. Surely an honest person, well-meaning person would point out the discrepancy IF he knew about it. But you did not question it. In mythology, there is a figure called "the Trickster." You fit."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22957.htmlSo your first excuse was, what where you to think. Then you admit you knew you were being quoted but now your excuse for LYING is I tricked you into lying! Yet where did I ever say I did anything more than quote you? Where did I ever say I agreed with your quote? The answer is I didn't. Furthermore since when is it dishonest or not well-meaning NOT to point out how and where you disagree with a quote? The answer is simple, it isn't! The real truth is the only one who tricked Pat D was Pat D. You were too arrogant and self- righteous to ask how? when? or where? One simple question on your part Pat would have prevented you from assuming you knew the truth and thus LYING when you claimed you knew I wan't familair with your speakers! I later even explain in detail in another post how much I disagreed with your quote. Had you only asked a question, like you did about which equipment I used to audtion the S2 you would have KNOWN the truth and not been caught in a blatant LIE, like you were.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22970.htmlIn case you don't realize it, quoting someone is not the same as agreeing with ther quote. Nor does quoting someone imply you agree with their words. I gave you credit for the intelligence to know that Pat.
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After all these references to my quoting YOU Pat do you finally develope the guts to admit you LIED? Nope you just continue on with trying to justify your actions. Your new excuse is "Actually, I would say you were pretending NOT to be familiar with my speakers when you were." as seen here: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlCan you believe the nerve of this LIAR. I tell him at least 2X I did a comparison of the Paradigm S2 Signatures vs Aliante Pinafarina Ones and now he claims I am pretending NOT to be familair with the Paradigm S2! Pat you'll stop at no lengths to justify your LYING will you? I NEVER did anything but quote your mistaken impression of the Paradigm S2 Sigs Patty old boy. If you had asked me I would have told when, where and how I listened to the S2 Signatures. But you were so arrogant and sure you were correct you didn't believe what I was telling you!
You'd rather threated me instead. So for a 2nd time with you threaten me with this "sincere advice" "So again, I still offer my sincere advice not to go down that line. Pity you misunderstood the remark."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlIn another attempt to intimidate me you say "Maybe I should go back and find things you wrote months ago, rip them out of context, interpret them however I please, and . . . Oh, but I wouldn't even have to do that! I could just be honest about them.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlBut that's yet another Pat D LIE. The ONLY way Pat D could make it appear I lied would be to actually rip my words out of context and interpret them however you please, but that's NOT what I did to you Pat. I quoted you verbatim, in context. In fact we now see you bring that threat into action by doing what you threated to do above. Pat you actually do rip my words out of context and interprets them however you please. Witness below...
Pat D claims this is what I said:
TOM "Even a direct comparison to the Aliante's showed how much the Paradigm S2 deviated from a flat & smooth response." Then he tells yet another LIE and says If you wish to regard your Aliante speakers as the standard for smoothness and accuracy in speakers, go right ahead.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23001.htmlNow let's go and see what I actually said:
"1) Smooth accurate response (The Paradigm's were more than a tad bright, but it did have an Aluminum tweeter, so that could explain it! USING LIVE MUSIC AS A STANDARD (emphasis mine), the Paradigm S2 are hardly providing a smooth & accurate response. Even a direct comparison to the Aliante's showed how much the Paradigm S2 deviated from a flat & smooth response.) http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/22970.html
Notice how LYING Pat D actually did go back and find things I wrote rips them out of context, interpret them however he pleased?
So now we discover Pat LYING & LYING, how many was that now? All this LYING to cover his original LIE that I he knew I wasn't familair with his speakers by claiming I used my Aliantes as my standard for smoothness and accuracy in speakers when I clearly stated I used live music as the standard. We now everyone can see that Pat D LIES and quite easily at that.
Yet despite all his LIES I attempted to diffuse this situation by reminding Pat "I've offered you olive branches in the past, apologized to you when I felt I was wrong etc. You in turn lie and instead of apologizing you try to say it's my fault you lied. Then you attempt to intimidate me with "...sincere advice not to go down that line. Pity you misunderstood the remark. You'll get from me what you give to me Pat! The ball's now in your court Pat. We can either be civil or go down the line I'm supposed to be afraid of. The decision is yours. But know this, however it goes from here, will be a result of what and where you decide to take it. I'm willing to try yet once again to find some middle ground for the sake of all involved. What do you want to do?"
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So how did Pat respond to that? Did he humble himself and just admit he made a mistake? Unfortunately no he didn't. Instead he chose to continue to defend his LYING ways. Let's see what Pat D says "You are the one who chose gratuitously to insert a discussion of my speakers into the thread, not me. You were simply trying to provoke me. Now you try to shift that responsibility on to me. Another trick. Again, I have offered no opinion on your Aliante speakers, it is you who imply I have-- another transparent trick."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23065.htmlOnce again Pat's back to claiming he's was tricked into lying about his speakers and he even has another justification for LYING "(I was) simply trying to provoke (him). So I guess provoking justifies lying in Pat's mind. But what about his when he claimed I said Aliante's the standard I used for for smoothness and accuracy in speakersand NOT live music as I actually said? Was Pat provoked or tricked once again? What ever happened to be responsible for one's actions? Let's continue on and see where Pat takes this in defense of his being a LIAR!
Pat now decides that he should switch to talking about our equipment.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23065.htmlI responded to that by telling Pat "What you might find surprising though Pat is the owner of the Paradigm felt he NEVER heard them sound as good at his home as they did on my system! He was shocked by how much better a speaker they were than he realized. In fact he even wanted to know what the Mastersound cost and debated over whether changing components might not actually be the better choice for achieving a more realistic replication of music. So I don't believe there was a mis-match of components "if" that's what you're thinking.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23083.htmlEverything below can be verified here: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/23125.html
Pat now tried to change who lies by stating; You have falsely alleged that I think there is only one path to audio Nirvana rather than many, you have said I have denigrated your equipment, and you have implied that I had said I preferred my speakers to your speakers. It's right here in your text, written very recently, not months ago, and it's quite clear:
TOM
"There are indeed many paths to audio nirvana, that's quite true. I've often stated I'd be willing to allow Objectivists like yourself, to go unchallegened in your beliefs if you'd allow the same of Subjectivists. But you don't allow us that Pat. You claim you do, while you constantly berate Subjectivists and their equipment. So when you say I'm putting my own preferences forward and denigrating yours! I will not give you what you won't give me Pat. So yes, I much prefer the Aliante Pinafarina Ones over the Paradigm S2 Signatures. That's my OPINION, you don't have to agree with it. But how would you know which you'd prefer having never heard the Aliante's?" So there, you have made the false allegations I have said you have, and they are right in the text. Where do I berate subjectivists and their equipment? You won't find any references. You imply that I have said I would prefer my speakers to the Aliantes: where do I say that? You won't be able to find any references.Somehow in his warped mind Pat D feels that my statement that he cannot say that he would prefer the Paradigms over the Aliantes (because he never heard the Aliantes) when I asked him a question i.e. "But how would you know which you'd prefer having never heard the Aliante's?" Is the same thing as stating he has said he would prefer his speakers to the Aliantes! Talk about warped thinking! Once again I suggest increased reading comprehension on your part Pat. The point I was trying to make is I CAN have a preference having compared them side-by-side, you cannot, period! Anything else you read into that is just that, you reading into it with your warped, LYING mind.
Additionally just because Pat D can come up with a quote wherein he isn't berating Subjectivists in his warped, LYING mind that means he doesn't berate subjectivists or the tubed equipment, exotic wires etc many of them use anywhere. Yet the reality is he does that very thing, which denying is yet another LIE.
At this point I've lost all respect for Pat D-Cake. I've wasted enough of my precious time on a person like him who lies so easily and frequently that he don't even believe he's lying anymore!
Bye-Bye Pat D-Cake. I know you'll use more of your dirty tricks and respond by using some combination of: 1) Claim he's being misquoted, 2) Claim he's being quoted out of context, 3) Claim he's misunderstood, 4) Claim he's being attacked, deceived or tricked etc 5) Claim his opponent doesn't think logically
6) Claim he didn't say something he said which is what you do the most, 7) Switch the actual topic to what he wants to debate
8) Blame others of doing the things he does,9) Make untrue claims like he's already proven that, when he hasn't or 10)Ignore the questions he's asked. You just as waste of my time and that stops here in regards to this topic, which I've proved over & over again. Now do us all a favor and make like nature and hide.... PLEASE!Thetubeguy1954
That stuff about lying about you has been refuted definitively in another post. You changed my question into an "statement" about you and you lied about what I had said about my speakers bass response.http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/27310.html
You still refuse to document each of your allegations from 1-10 and a-d. What are you afraid of?
N. B. I said in the text below that I did not recall any occasion he misquoted me. I would not say that now and will revise the text at my leisure.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
I just read the bulk of this topic and find it really funny that you are being mocked by someone who has QSC amps in a home system. The only thing that would hav made if funnier is if he had Bogen. Only having a little bit of experience with tubes I usually do not comment much.But amps like QSC, Pyle, Crown, and Peavey while putting out a lot of watts do not belong in a home system, they were designed for bars and clubs.
TO AJinFLA: if you really want solid state seperates dump the QSCs and get Alesis.
> But amps like QSC, Pyle, Crown, and Peavey while putting out a lot of watts do not belong in a home system, they were designed for bars and clubs. <They do an amazing job of accurately reproducing the skating rink experience. :)
For some, that is good enough for their home system. Obviously, you and I don't share that willingness to settle for mediocrity.
ought to be something very special. You are lucky to have Paul as a friend (tell him you deserve TAD 4001's:). That stuff is so far out of my price range it might ruin me for life once I hear them. That CD player is supposed to be the cat's meow too. You have made wise choices.I am down in south florida and hang with a few guys. We have all been meaning to head up for one of the rat pack's audio meets. Last time one of us tried a hurricane ruined the plans.
I find that the less people know about a given subject the more convinced and vocal they are about that subject. Only the wise an experienced think that the more they learn the less sure they are of what they thought they knew.
Russ
Russ,Yes the RCA LC9As should be quite nice when they're completed! You're right about Paul too. I managed to trade for a pair of his modded pre-1990 TAD 2001's.
Where I'm really lucky is in being a member of the CFAS (Central Florida Audio Society) we have members like Roger Russell who used to design speakers for McIntosh. Paul and one other member are profession recording engineers. Then there's Dr. Bob Hoekstra who's a professor at University of Central Florida. Dr. Bob is the same guy who builds the "Hoekstra" motors for the NASCAR and other Racing Teams. Prior to his motor career, Bob owned and operated recording studios for more than 20 years. His Axiom amp design is sold via Chimera Labs (see link) these and some others in the group are very knowledgeable. We run the gauntlet of Objectivist to Subjectivist and every type of topology of component you can think of. I love talking audio with these guys. It's nothing like trying to discuss differing POVs here.
The RCA's should really be nice when I'm done and being one of only somewhere between 100-300 pairs ever made, they should be worth a pretty penny as well. It's funny that you mention the Stibbert being the cat's meow. Believe it or not I chose every piece based strictly on my own opinion. None of them were even reviewed when I bought them. I don't know if the Mastersound has ever been reviewed, but I've read reviews of the CDP and speakers and agree with the reviewers assessment of them. My own system isn't perfect I can certainly fault it, yet at the same time overall it's the best system I've ever heard in anyone's home, IMHO that it. I can find points (like better bass, or better dynamics etc) in other friends systems that I prefer, but no one system in it's entirety where I would trade my system for their system.
Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
I've never heard an SET and thus have not formed any kind of opinion. I saw an ASL unit at Seacliff on one of my visits, but it was not hooked up at the time. Since my speakers are relatively inefficient, I would likely not be happy with one for that reason.rw
E-Stat,With the Mastersound @ 40W/ch and the Aliante Pinafarina ones at 88dB unless I really crank it up with Prog rock it works quite well. Thanks GOD I listen many to Smooth Jazz and Jazzy New Age music.
I do however understand why you'd feel that since your speakers are relatively inefficient, you would likely not be happy with one for that reason.
I've never tried to claim there's one true way to audio nirvana, but rather attempted to show the naysayers that SETs are capable of more then most believe. Of course at 40W/ch the Mastersound isn't your typical SET either.
Thetubeguy1954
and more specifically, its dynamics. While I enjoy all the types of music you mentioned, most of said is relatively undemanding. Here, for example, is a Sound Forge representation of a nice cut from a Troika album. Some peaks, but overall not a whole lot of change.
On the other hand, classical can be very different. Some of the most demanding examples were written by a little Russian guy named Igor.
One of the things I like about Stravinsky's music is that he knew how to use explosive dynamics to convey the music's emotion - and startle the hell out of you / raise the hairs on your arms in the process. Here is the complete twenty minute sample of the Introduction to the Firebird
A wee bit different, wouldn't you say? Now, here's an excerpt of that middle section where you can really see what knock's you out of your chair. You get lulled with about ten seconds of a quiet passage and then are slammed in the face with a sub-second peak! Ten seconds later, you get hit again. Four seconds later, again. This is why I'd really like to have more power than seven hundred watts.
rw
Yes but nearly all the music requires very low power. Those peaks are quite short and if the amp clips gracefully (as most SETs do) then you might not even hear the clipping (also because the sound is now much louder anyway). It is clear that with some music, even several hundred watts is insufficient on insensitive speakers like your Soundlabs. This means that ALL amps will clip on those passages, better then to have something that will sail through the clipping without undue stress or prolonging the clipping beyond the actual peak. This is a problem with high feedback amps, the feedback keeps them clipping for longer and more harshly.
This means that ALL amps will clip on those passages...with these 500 lb bad boys! Two kilowatts provides a surfeit of adequacy. :)
rw
The Wyetech Topaz. As I recall, it was an SET powerhouse at 18 wpc. At normal volumes, it was incredible. No other amp could touch it. It was connected to dynamic driver speakers I owned at the time but unfortunately they were 87 db speakers and as I listen to a lot of music with wide dynamics, they just didn't go well together. To add insult to injury, the highly efficient speakers I've heard just don't do it for me.So like E-Stat, SET just isn't a viable option for me except perhaps in an office system played at relatively low volume.
yep its a really good amp for all but insensitive speakers.
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