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In Reply to: RE: Very common to confuse the two. posted by Presto on December 17, 2009 at 16:56:26
hey presto,
I´ve been using the allocator/arbitrator for almost a year now and I must honestly say it works very well indeed. -as per se !
....but I must confess that setting the right arbitrator / phase responses is a very hard task on audition trial-and-error !
-maybe my magnepan dipole system is not bettering the cloud, but I´m working on it.
there are just an enormous amount of parameters to take into account.
I´m not sure if I can call arbitrator it a definite gain, before I´ve measured and adjusted the entire system for phase errors. -and thats inevitable gonna be with square waves and the lot....
-and that´s got to be my audiophile challenge for 2010.
if you have any suggestions to achieve such analysis , I´m very happy to hear about it !
kindest regards
Follow Ups:
Playmate:
You need a measurement mic and small mixer with phantom (48V) power. I use a Behringer ECM8000 mic and a Behringer Eurorack UB802 mixer. For software, you need a MLS suite - something that will capture, at a minimum, the amplitude response of your system. You could record a sweep with a trial version of Adobe Audition, and then analyse the amplitude response. Or, you could try to get a copy of ETF which has limited but useful measurement capabilities in demo mode.
You will need to run sweeps of the system of each set of drivers individuall. In a two way, the midbasses by themselves, and tweets by themselves, one speakers at a time. For a three way, woofs, then mids, then tweets. A full range sweep will tell you little about where the crossover point is and what it's slopes are.
Then, you need to import the data as FRD files into Allocator and dial in the crossover point(s) that match up best with where the measured curves intersect. You also want to determing the slope of the curves. Basically, you want to enable an arbitrator curve for each crossover point that lays on top of what you have measured.
Manufacturers data for drivers is of no use. This will tell you nothing about the response on the specific baffles you are dealing with and what electrical filtering has been done.
The only time you could get into trouble is if the desiger chose to use asymmetrical slopes. If there are asymmetrical slopes, you may be in luck as the designer may have implemented a subtractive delay design and you are already transient perfect. But I would bet very few designers are using this method.
Cheers,
Presto
Thanks Presto.
Your explanation obviously matches what Allocator designer told me.
It is also possible to use ARTA free software to measure.
Of course both Playmate and I have speakers with asymmetrical slopes :-/
Bibo:
How is your system coming along? Sorry I have not replied to all of your e-mails. I have been extremely busy with work, 2 kids in diapers and a wife who's been not exactly well since baby 2 came along.
I was wondering if you ever did get Allocator to work with your AV system and if the delay caused by the Allocator process was noticeable? (Are there timing issues with lip movement and speech for example).
Anyways - yeah I would ask Jan on the Allocator forum what one can do about asymetrical slopes. The only way to go about things now is to add a "pair" of matched curves around a single Fc point AFAIK. Would be nice if each individual curve had selectable slop. Perhaps this does not agree with the math involved in arbitration.... who can say. On Jan would know for sure!
So, Merry Christmas to you and yours!
Cheers,
Presto
Re. my system, I still would need your help to troubleshoot. It seems that in VAC -> VST Host -> Allocator -> Asio4All configuration, ASIO4All creates channel swapping and crackling during multi-ch playback. I can't really use it as it is. I have DS multi-ch playback with no XO and let bass and mid/high receive full signal.
When you have a chance, I will still gladly accept your help. In meantime, I wish the best to your wife.
Re. phase with Allocator/Arbitator, I asked Jan about asymmetrical slopes measuring. He replied:
"The best way would be to plug in a mic and tweak in real time using a measurement program. There are a few out there including the 30 day demo of Smaart. You can even measure using real music as source.
You would have Arbitrator in line and tweak it until flattest phase response is found.
Simply modeling, is kind of flying blind and relying on measurements taken by other people of their speakers. Yours could be off by as much as 5-10% either way from the published curves.
I know it's not easy, but very satisfying when accomplished."
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