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In Reply to: RE: Hierarchy posted by Squonk on November 03, 2009 at 02:39:46
I agree it is better without, but you have to control volume somehow, and changing the digital stream is not the answer. Neither is passive volume control.
Steve N.
Follow Ups:
I disagree. My experience proves a passive volume control is exponentially superior to a preamp. On my system that is.
Passive preamps can never sound as good as an active preamp.
You need Oomph in your music to give it life...passives can't do that...
Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Transformer passives can deliver dynamics, but they suffer from magnetic distortion effects unless you pay the big bux. Good cores and silver wire etc..
Passives STILL sound MUCH better than hazy preamps. YUCK! Get that preamp outta here.
But there are yet even other ways to skin a cat!
Yes. lol. Sorry for being a bit obnoxious in my posts about this subject. Most of my posts generally are not because I also believe 'placebo' is real, so, most of the time, I admit, there could be placebo in effect. NOT regarding preamps. As far as preamps go, MY system HATES them, so, I don't mess with them anymore. I have tried some of the best and I HEAR HAZE. My next purchase will definitely be a DAC with balanced variable outs. To me, it just makes sense to have it integrated into the DAC. I know, the bass suffers a little bit (in my system it's not that big a deal) with a passive unit, but, the trade off is too huge for ME. And that's that. Only problem now is I now have a significant other so I now have to have permission before I make the purchase. It will happen though. lol
Passive preamps can never sound as good as an active preamp.
You need Oomph in your music to give it life...passives can't do that...
Well, you really can't say never , because then your going to have to say that you've heard *every* combo of passive pre-amp/amp & active pre-amp/amp and have come to that definitive conclusion.
I have owned a Pass Aleph L and Pass Aleph 5 for a _very_ long time. The Aleph L (version 2) is a unique passive/active design. From the manual...
"Unique to this preamp, patent pending, is a volume level control which combines the best qualities of a passive attenuator and active gain circuitry:
At the 3 o’clock volume control position, the Aleph L offers a direct path from input to output.The only component in the signal path is wire and switch contacts.
At positions below 3 o’clock, the volume control functions as a precision passive attenuator
using discrete resistor ladders.
Above 3 o’clock, active gain is added to the output signal in 2 decibel increments, for a maximum of 10 dB.
As a result, you suffer the effects of active circuitry only when additional gain is necessary."
I have heard the arguments that using a passive pre-amp "sucks the life" out of music or makes it sound "closed in". But I have also read that the reasons for this happening are because of impediance mismatches between passive-pre and amp.
If you look at the specs (links to follow) of the Aleph L and the Aleph series amps, you'll see that they're designed to work very well together. I have spent many a night switching between passive, 3'oclock, and active gain in my Aleph L and the music has never sounded lifeless in the passive range. I have also substituted the L for borrowed ('cause I really want a remote!!) active pre-amps and have always gone back to the Aleph L. The actives don't sound any better to my ears; noisier, if anything.
Link to Alpeh L manual: http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/old%20product%20manuals/alman.pdf
Link to Aleph 5: http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/old%20product%20manuals/a5man.pdf
If you happen to come across anyone who has this combo take a listen. You might be pleasantly surprised. Or if you're ever in New York, send me a PM.
Cheers.
Wow thats good information, people tend to forget about impedance.
If I am ever in or near NY, you bet I sure will give you a PM....thanks
Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Wow thats good information, people tend to forget about impedance.
If I am ever in or near NY, you bet I sure will give you a PM....thanks
You're welcome.
I just remembered about another paper that Mr. Pass wrote concerning passives and buffer gain stages. Gets more to the heart of the matter.
Take a look-see here: http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/B1%20Buffer%20Preamp.pdf
Enjoy.
My GFP-750 was designed by Nelson Pass. :)
Nope, sorry. I do not like the haze preamps impart on the music. I prefer the openness of a passive. To each his own I guess. On my system, passive is the way to go. No question about it. Free yourself, go with passive, it will set you free. :) Trust me.
"I do not like the haze preamps impart on the music. I prefer the openness of a passive.
Did you control for constant gain when you compared actives and passives? For a valid comparison, gain has to be balanced to within 0.1 dB, which can be difficult to achieve depending on your setup. If gain controls are continuous then there is the problem of repeatability. If gain controls are discrete then there is the problem there an accurate level match may be impossible. And if extra equipment is used to deal with gain leveling then this equipment may not be transparent and thus invalidate the entire comparison.
Did you control for polarity when comparing active and passives? A passive is not going to invert polarity (except possibly a mis-wired balanced passive). Many active line stages will invert polarity. If you hear differences you may simply be hearing the difference between two ways of playing the same recording. With some recordings and speakers this can represent a significant difference, at least to some listeners. Unless you have controlled for this effect, any comparisons will be invalid. This situation is more an annoyance and PITA than a show stopper. There being only two possibilities, one can address these more or less conveniently. I used to deal with this by swapping speaker wires, and put up with the lower sonic performance of banana plugs to avoid the necessity of tools. Now I use cPlay, which has a built-in polarity switch.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
lol, no, gain or polarity didn't interfere with my opinion. ALL preamps impart haze. No thanks, pass, never again...
What do you mean by "haze"? If it is a defocusing of the sound it probably wouldn't be caused by small gain change, but it might be caused by a polarity reversal. Many times when a polarity reversal is corrected, instruments will snap into focus and appear more real. The best way to deal with potential polarity problems is to train oneself to hear them. The first step is to get a convenient way of reversing polarity. Some player software has this capability built in (cPlay) or can be added as an option (Foobar). An alternate way if you're not a couch potato is to get up and reverse speaker wires all the time. (That's the way I used to do it before I got a computer audio system.)
In general, I agree with you, there is little reason to use a preamp if your only program source is a computer system. A passive attenuator is a better option if it can be located close to the amplifier. Or you may get good results (assuming you have a 24 bit DAC) by using fixed attenuation coupled with a software volume control to adjust for overly loud recordings or background listening. (Software volume control should never be used to make up for excessive analog gain, otherwise a computer glitch could blow things up.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Re: “[..] a computer glitch could blow things up.”
Tony,
I think your warning doesn’t go far enough! People see a volume control in cPlay or Foobar, for example, and think: Gee, I don’t need a preamp or attenuator in the chain at all. But this is a risk for the reason that we know computers are not the most stable things. As you say, if there is a glitch.. Speakers, in particular, are very delicate things.
"I think your warning doesn’t go far enough!"I won't disagree. All of my previous posts on this subject were more guarded. Over the years, I've blown my share of speaker drivers, some even while "protected" by fuses. Not yet, thankfully, with my computer audio setup, but that's perhaps because I am presently running only 25 watts and listening near field in a small room.
I have my analog gain set so that the loudest possible digital track won't clip my amplifier, and this corresponds roughly to 103 db SPL at my listening position on peaks. Most material plays at about -8 dB digital gain except when playing background music. Audiophile recordings with no compression get the benefit of no digital volume reduction. The other recordings have to make do with 22 or 23 bits of resolution going to the DAC. I have enough gain for all of my CD rips and downloads. I used to run at a lower analog gain, but some recordings weren't quite loud enough to sound natural. Two examples that get played at 0 dB digital attenuation: Temirnakov Mahler 5 on Water Lilly (88/24 download) and "West of Oz" on Sheffield (CD rip).
I can easily pass the "you've got mail" test, but I have some test files that have huge ultrasonic energy that would probably smoke my tweeters in a few seconds. It is also possible for heavy low bass to bottom my woofers but I've been able to stop this the few times I've had this happen before doing damage.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 11/04/09
The GFP-750 has polarity switch.
Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Hmmm, not familiar with that but it looks like a nice product. Hey DR, didn't you ever try hooking your Lavry directly into your active speakers? Surely you've tried that right? And you didn't like the sound? Wow, ok, again, to each his own. I wish you lived in my town, I would LOVE to try your Lavry into my Active 40s. I am DEFINITELY looking for a DAC/Volume control solution. Seems like the perfect solution for me.
Sure my Lavry lived connected to my active Dynaudio's, but ultimately the Lavry lacked emotion and life. Even a pre could not help, so I looked for something else and stumbled on an un-named NOS dac. No volume control though.
BTW, Gold point makes the worlds best passive volume controls imo. Nothing is more transparent.
I was thinking about buying a Twisted Pear Sabre DAC and building it with a Gold point volume pot. The whole thing can be accomplished for about 1K.
For the record though, I am not totally hooked on preamps, I try every combination until I find something that works or sounds best to me...in my upstairs system for example I don't have a pre hooked up....Linux--> -DAC---> Amp---> speakers.
Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Ooooo, sounds like a very interesting project there DR. If you go forward with that, keep me posted.
Anyway, all I'm saying is, many years ago, I compared a couple different $6000.00 price range preamps just for shits and giggles. I didn't plan on buying them, but, I knew the guys working at the local pro shop so they let me borrow a couple top-of-the-line units to check out. My personal opinion was I did not like the 'haze' either unit parted on the sound. Sure, the bass was a little better, but, the trade off was too great. I have become so accustomed to no preamp that I can detect 'haze' very quickly and I don't like it. I REALLY like the openness a passive provides. Of course, this is MY opinion on MY system. For me, a perfect solution would be a unit with an active preamp section for the bass, and a passive for the mid-range and treble. lol However, I don't think a design like this would be possible.
Doesn't sound like you need such a design....if you are happy with a pure passive then so be it...but that sounds a lot like a passive system with an active sub.
There are no absolutes as fas as I am concerned. Like with Linux, Music Player Daemon seems to be the reigning king of audio software but I happen to like the sound of ALSA player with certain settings. A player made by the very people who created the ALSA sound architecture that is built to fully exploit ALSA.
Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Not quite the same there chief. A passive signal still would go to the subwoofer. And, don't forget about midbass.
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