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In Reply to: RE: AQVOX USB DAC : Initial impressions... posted by Audio Pharaoh on February 25, 2008 at 16:26:14
In your review you said you preferred your new USB Dac when it was feed by a Trends UD-10.1 RATHER then when you let the DAC act as the sound card.This puzzles me. The UD-10 is a very low dollar device with a $2 chip that is actually intended to be used as a super inexpensive DAC. The Trends just uses this cheap dac chip (the PCM 2704) to take the USB input and convert it to S/PDIF.
So, you are saying that this $2 device does a better job of processing USB than the AQVOX?
Again... that really puzzles me.
I had a UD-10 connected to a MF X-Dac and replaced it with a Benchmark DAC 1 USB. Just for "fun" I tried the UD-10 with the Benchmark and compared the two unit's ability to act as a sound card and the improvement between those two devices was pretty clear cut to me. (Yes, I did have an outboard power supply on the Trends)
One more thing... the Trends outputs 16 bit/48K sample rate. Certainly the AQVOX, like the Benchmark does a much better sample rate conversion to 24 bit /192K sample rate.
Edits: 02/26/08Follow Ups:
I'm not aware of good sounding USB converters at reasonable prices except for the HagUsb etc..which I'm also thinking to order and try. However, the majority of those who tried both claim the Trends is 'sonically' better.
Using the direct USB input on the AQVOX made the soundstage collapse a bit. Using the Trends feeding the AQVOX through its coax dig. input restored the sounstage. I'm not sure why as I also find it more logical to use the AQVOX as the main 'sound device' with a direct USB connection from the laptop. It might be that the DAC is still not burnt-in completely. The Trends has had many hours before the AQVOX arrived. Another reason could be the difference in sonic quality between the USB cable and the coax cable im using. I will try again a direct USB connection once I have more hours on the DAC..
I read somewhere recently that the USB input implementation on many current USB DACs is not up to par, so this maybe another reason for the differences I noticed.
As for the outputs, using the Trends with my Assemblage combo and with the AQVOX I can only see a 16/44 outputs. I haven't played with upsampling yet on the AQVOX but I'm not a big fan of upsampling, the original 16/44 is more natural to my ears..
CP, if you know of any really good quality USB converters that could really better the Trends at real world prices, please chime in.
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Jules Winnfield(Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
I use the Trends UD-10.1 to connect my computer to my APL Denon 3910 with a digital input board using S/PDIF. And with that setup, I can play back the same track through iTunes and the CD, simultaneously (or almost). And when I switch between the two as the music is playing, they are VERY close to identical.
The differences I hear between the two could be attributable to the quality of the rip (ie. ripping software and hardware used) and perhaps the quality of the USB cable from the computer to the Trends. Incidentally, this is why I'm eager to listen to the Synergistic Research USB cable that Mercman brought to my attention.
Based on this, I would have to agree that the Trends UD-10.1 is VERY good for the price assuming you have a very high quality DAC with a very high quality digital input board.
-Gary
Audio Pharaoh,I have been listening to the new Wavelength Brick V2 with Asynchronous USB and will be reporting on it shortly. I don't know if retail $1750 is in your price range, but it does sound wonderful without the hardness or two dimensionality I often hear in lower price DACs.
Seve
Hey Steve,
I know that you're working on a review, and I'm anxious to see it, but could you jump the gun a little bit and say whether you could hear a major difference between the V2 Brick and the previous version of the Brick, or was the difference more of a slight one?
Thanks,
Jim
Jim,
I haven't heard a ver 1 Brick in many moons. I will be discussing the ver 2. The Async USB makes a big difference. It did in my Crimson, and will in the Cosecant and Brick.
That's the page I'll be on.
Steve
How strange!
You seem to be saying that you bought a USB DAC but don't take advantage of its USB input. Instead you prefer to do a USB to SPDIF conversion using the cheapo Trends unit. This is surely bonkers! You are adding an additional unit with its power supply, extra cable, etc. to achieve your simple objective of converting the output of a PC to an analogue signal.
The logical solution is surely to get a single, well designed unit to do this job. And while you're at it, why not get one with a variable output (remotely controlled) so you don't need a preamp? You're now looking at something like a Bel Canto DAC3. OK it's $2500 but you have saved tons on all the other componants and cables. It is a so much "purer" solution.
Or have I missed something?
Peter
There are multiple DACs on the market that convert USB to I2S and skip the entire S/PDIF interface. Dacs like the Benchmark Dac1 USB do it for about $1,200.
Why take a pure digital interface like USB and convert it to S/PDIF only to convert it back within the DAC if you don't have to? Surely it makes more sense to convert USB directly to I2S and then feed that to the DAC chip for conversion to analog output.
The Trends chip is a commodity chip that is handy for such a conversion but that's about all. The Hag unit uses the exact same chip by the way. Which is why these are both $100 devices.
I agree that the Trends is good "for it's price"... but it's a $100 item at RETAIL and it is all box and connection interfaces. I'll bet the metal box it's in cost more than the electronics it contains.
Yes I take your point that USB is best converted to I2S rather than SPDIF. This prompts the question - why buy a USB DAC unless it is the type that converts USB to I2S? The original poster went to the trouble of buying his costly USB DAC, but uses a cheap external device to effectively bypass the (virtually) identical circuit in his USB DAC. He's not taking advanyage of the DAC having a USB input.
I am looking for a high quality DAC that takes a USB input (ideally converting to I2S), but it will have to have conventional coax and optical digital inputs as well - and I want it to have a remote controlled volume control to avoid the need for an unwanted preamp. And one further "wish list" feature - can I get this device battery operated? A DAC requires miniscule power, so why on earth are most connected to the mains supply when an 12 volt battery would do the job so much cleaner?Suggestions please if there is such a product on the market.
Thanks
peter
Hi Pete,
I got the Trends Audio USB converter so I can use my non-usb Assemblage Dac Combo. The AQVOX came by accident a few days ago for me to try and evaluate (I did not buy it). I'm having really great sound using the Trends converter with my current Dac combo and won't contemplate buying the AQVOX unless it turns out to be superior in ALL areas to the Assemblage units, which I still seriously doubt, eventhough the AQVOX is indeed a very nice sounding unit by itself. The Assemblage units (circa 2001 at MSRP $3400 ) are much much better built than the AQVOX and more natural sounding across the board with excellent sonic weight and heft.
The Trends unit might be 'cheap' but it is a very 'nice sounding' unit provided you feed it with a good USB cable and a similarly good coax cable at the output.
This is my first venture into serious PC audio and so far the outcome is fantastic. More experiments are sure to follow..
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Jules Winnfield(Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
Thanks for the clarification. Presumably if the Aqvox unit sounded as good as the Assemblage with Trends (when using a USB signal) you would be best to use the Aqvox. It will be interesting to hear your comments after the unit is properly run in.Presumably if you were using a Mac there would be no need for the Trends with your Assemblage, as the Mac has an Toslink output built in. Some seem to find that this Toslink output sounds as good or better than the USB output. Since I am planning to use a Mac, I wonder if I should bother getting a USB DAC. If the Toslonk output is comparable, then my Mark Levinson CD player's DAC (or any other non-USB one) should do the job just as well.
I would still like to find the ideal DAC:
- USB and convertional digital inputs
- USB is converted to I2S rather than SPDIF
- Remote control for Volume (analogue) and Input selection
- Battery poweredAnyone any suggestions? The nearest so far is the Bel Canto DAC3, but it relies on mains and I believe converts the USB signal to SPDIF.
Thanks
Peter
Hi Pete,
Thanks for your input. Looking at your set-up (a very nice one I must say), I'd first try the Mac's Toslink direct into your ML's digital input AND why not also experiment with something like a HagUsb or a Trends Audio. I VERY seriously doubt a different USB Dac will outperform your current ML used a DAC, even when using a device like the Trends or the Hag etc..
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Jules Winnfield(Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
I have a Mac Mini and used it's Toslink output directly into a Musical Fidelity X-Dac v3. I thought it sounded great. I then bought a Trends UD-10 thinking it would sound better fed by USB. But it didn't. In fact, I thought the Trends/X-Dac sounded nowhere near as good. So, I went back to the Toslink.
Then I got a Benchmark Dac1 USB and I compared both the Benchmark via USB versus the X-Dac via the Toslink.
It took me a month to decide that I preferred the Benchmark. I then tested the Benchmark fed by USB and then again with Toslink. I don't think I ever was able to determine a clear winner with this test. But I went back to USB anyway. I did use a very good quality short glass Toslink cable.
So, do you need a USB Dac with a Mac? I wouldn't say so. But really, the USB interface is a more optimal choice than the Toslink.
By the way, Gordon Rankin, has checked out the Toslink on the Mac and he said that the USB circuitry is what derives the Mac's Toslink output. The optical signal chip is feed by the USB output.
(Also, I don't think there is a battery powered, remote volume controlled USB Dac that converts USB to I2S.)
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