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In Reply to: RE: 2 bit perfect USB drivers posted by Mercman on August 19, 2014 at 11:43:31
I read that article last year when it first came out. Gosh! Mr. Swenson makes it seem miraculous that computers can work at all, let alone play music. It would have been nice if he had included some data to give the reader an idea of the scale and the scope of the issues he is talking about.
I'm curious. If computers really are the infernal, intractable pots of poison you seem to think they are, why do you even bother with them? Do you get any pleasure at all from PC playback?
Follow Ups:
Computers do work well for music. But, as John pointed out, there are issues that can and do degrade our music. Enthusiasts recognize this and try to lessen these issues.
Given that most people here can't measure anything, let alone complex problems that well educated designers, engineers, and physicists can't totally explain, you leave no room for any discussion given your testing requirements.
Quite honestly, as I have pointed out many times to you, you waste your time here. No one can satisfy your requirements, so why do you bother?
"most people here can't measure anything, let alone complex problems that well educated designers, engineers, and physicists can't totally explain"
Insightful statement Steve...
We humans seem driven to 'explain' things even if we have to make up the answers. Unlearning that is a crucial step towards becoming a successful Scientist, Engineer or Technician. Knowing what you don't know is knowing far more than most that "know", you know?
I also must admit that I have little patience with "labelers". The folks (not just audiophiles by any means) who believe that knowing a putative name for something means that they understand it. Mmmm, "tube" good, "mass market" bad...
Humans just don't meet Spec. After-all how could we, we ARE the mass market.
Rick
"But, as John pointed out, there are issues that can and do degrade our music."
Actually, he did no such thing. He speculated about possible issues and made some claims, but he didn't demonstrate, much less prove, anything.
Now campfire ghost stories are all well and good. (I can imagine several of the inmates here, huddled about the fire, gasping in horror as JS weaves his Tale of Terror.) However, ghost stories are not proof of anything. As I said before, I'd like some notion of the actual scale of the issues JS is raising. Are they -20dB down (Yikes!) or are they -120dB down (who cares?).
"you waste your time here" Actually, I'm the only one qualified to judge whether or not I am wasting my time. However, if my posts are wasting your time then please feel free to ignore them. If this is your forum then go ahead and ban me. However, if this is a public forum then get used to the idea that while you are free to make your claims in the agora others are equally free to challenge them.
JE
"I'm the only one qualified to judge whether or not I am wasting my time."
As was already stated we can judge whether you are wasting our time...
Something for you to ponder... How do you know unequivocally that you concept or testing or measurements is the correct path? Prove this...
What if one's hearing and the human experience was actually the way to find the audio truth???
And you are just full of hot air???
Prove this wrong... Until you can do this, maybe you can stop asking for testing in every thread...
If this was a religious discussion you should not bombard people who worship Allah, with you demands to believe in Jesus...
At least there, a cool $1,000,000 is waiting for you, still unclaimed after all these years.
That ought to be a walk in the park - now for the hard part: try to coax a meaningful, satisfactory explanation out of Cauliflower Ear, why he thinks that:
- the test he linked to is relevant to the matters discussed;
- the result, whether positive or negative, achieved by YOU, on your system with your ears, has any meaning for HIM personally, or is relevant for pretty much anyone or anything else.
Something tells me that "I'm currently out of toilet paper, so I'm gonna print out those results, and use as directed" is as close as you're going to get.
"What if one's hearing and the human experience was actually the way to find the audio truth???"
"Prove this wrong... Until you can do this, maybe you can stop asking for testing in every thread..."
Go to the link below and download the Audio Diffmaker. On the same page is a link to a different page full of "dyf" files. Go to that page and find the "Listener Challenge" which is made up of seven pairs of dyf files, labeled "Test 1" through "Test 7." You can download any or all of these but after 1 or 2 you should get the idea pretty quickly. Note also, that when playing a dyf file, ignore the tempting looking "Load" button and instead go to the menu bar and use the "Dyf File Sets" menu to load the files.
Fire up the test! Click on play for the alternate tracks to audition them (each is roughly ten seconds long) then use the "extract" button to extract the difference between the two tracks and then play it back.
I'm answering you honestly, I ask you to take the challenge honestly. No subjecting the tracks to machine analysis. No playback at levels you would not ordinarily listen at. Just kick back, enjoy the lullaby as you would any piece of fine music and see if you can spot the difference between them. The Audio Diffmaker can find it. Can you?
My understanding, though I can't cite a source, is that the difference is mixed in at about -60dB. Listening to the extracted difference makes that seem about right. For the most part, it's pretty hard to hear, isn't it? This is why I don't really care that much about "issues" that are more than -100dB down, and why I find it amazing that people claim they make huge differences to the sound of their systems.
YMMV and All the Best!
JE
. . . I'm the only one qualified to judge whether or not I am wasting my time.
This is true but, by the same token, I'm the only one qualified to judge whether you're wasting mine. The answer is yes because your approach is not sceptical (which is fine) but Philistine, i.e. ill-informed and irritatingly self-serving.
You bang on as if the issues JS was discussing were exotic, away-with-the-fairies stuff that no-one had ever encountered before and had credibility in audio circles such as AA only because participants (excepting you of course) are too naive to ask what you deem to be clever questions.
On the contrary, though he explains his points unusually well, they are familiar enough even to people who are (or, in my case, were) even peripherally involved in the minutiae of electronic design in the instrumentation field.
I first became involved with DACs over 40 years ago though (obviously) not in the audio sector. Nothing JS describes runs counter to my preliminary experiences way back then or to my somewhat wider exposure since.
So, instead of lecturing the rest of us on how dumb we are, why not tootle off, do some reading on the issues and come back when you have a bit more understanding and perhaps a more positive contribution to make?
Otherwise, you risk losing your credibility with some stray dog from Hydrogen Audio - who has no tools at his disposal to even repeat the experiment, let alone interpret the results.
Hey, feel free to ignore my posts. My nick is pretty distinctive so it should be no surprise to you if you click on something I've posted.
With regard to JS's articles, my complaint is that he never ties his theories to reality. For example, there is a lot of hand waving about jitter. At one point he says: "The spectrum of this noise and jitter has a VERY strong component at either 1KHz or 8KHz, both of which are directly in the audio range." I'm not saying this is untrue, but I am asking just how much jitter and noise are we talking about here? Is this something to worry about or can it be ignored? JS never tells us. "VERY strong" is not data. "VERY strong" is a value judgment. Why am I a bad guy for wanting to see some data so I can make my own value judgment? How is asking for some data "lecturing the rest of us on how dumb we are?" Read the comments to JS's articles. I'm not the only one who was dissatisfied with them. I'll happily concede that JS's articles raise interesting engineering questions. What I want to know is whether or to what extent those questions have been answered by current technology. Oddly enough, whenever I read a review of a current component that includes a jitter and noise measurement, the jitter and noise levels always seem to be vanishingly low. Where are these lions and tigers and bears I'm supposed to worry about? Has current engineering extirpated them?
If the interior of my PC is the blasted moonscape JS and others on this forum seem to think it is, how come beautiful music comes out of it when I turn it on? For that matter, why does it even turn on?
What's your idea of a "more positive contribution?" Sucking up to the inmates who post tales of magical SATA cables or $60 a piece thimbles? Perhaps my skepticism is a positive contribution to this forum. No one should get too complacent. People should be ready to defend their positions. Lord knows I've done enough of that since I started posting here.
JE
I guess you need proof that no one here can give you. Not even John Swenson.
I guess the best thing for me to is ignore your posts.
Adios
NT
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