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In Reply to: RE: Rapid change??? posted by Dynobot on February 15, 2012 at 17:38:55
"People need to stop wasting their money chasing pipe dreams."
I'm dreaming of another pipe besides SPDIF! But in the meanwhile I'm sitting here enjoying music via coax at 16/44. My DAC's so old that's about all she has in her and the music is lovely, but not quite SOTA... But it may be improving soon as it closes in on "vintage".
I enjoy the convenience of USB on computers now that it works well and it is far more capable for audio than these real time, low bandwidth, unidirectional schemes my old stuff uses, but why stop there? As the cost of implementing Ethernet continues to drop in price, power and size I wonder if we still need local busses for audio period. What do you think? If we just networked our audio systems so many problems would be alleviated, especially the long cable issues. Physically an RJ-45 isn't much larger than the USB A connector...
Rick
Follow Ups:
"People need to stop wasting their money chasing pipe dreams."I thought that's what audiophiles did.
> But it may be improving soon as it closes in on "vintage".You might even become a hip trendsetter.
> As the cost of implementing Ethernet continues to drop in price, power
> and size I wonder if we still need local busses for audio period.There isn't that much difference in hardware required for a USB DAC or an Ethernet DAC. That hardware could include both a USB device connector and an Ethernet connector.
> If we just networked our audio systems so many problems would be
> alleviated, especially the long cable issues.There hasn't been a suitable standard protocol for communications between devices via ethernet. Some candidates exist: Apple's air-play, DLNA (uPnP), Logitech Squeezebox protocol, plain old network file I/O (like Sonos) and Music Player Daemon <--> client protocol.
Once you get beyond the technical issues, there is the chicken and egg issue of the size of the market. An Ethernet DAC isn't very attractive unless there is a large installed base of devices it can talk to.
Bill
Edits: 02/16/12
How about some real progress rather than just change?
"Once you get beyond the technical issues, there is the chicken and egg issue of the size of the market. An Ethernet DAC isn't very attractive unless there is a large installed base of devices it can talk to."
I think the market is heading that way actually. There is the Apple Airport and the Squeezebox stuff certainly has it's followers. While I consider it's implementation a kludge (I know, many don't) it wouldn't take much to clean it up and make it a lot more robust while still maintaining backward compatibility with their extant systems.
The obvious missing element, which is more a mindset than anything tangible, is regarding speakers and headphones as rendering devices on the network similar to printers, scanners, storage... That topology has so very many advantages that it's obvious even to the most casual observer (me) it's what we should do. Power amps and speakers are a SYSTEM. Always have been to folks intent on optimizing their performance. Source and Control are also a logical system as it the remote controlling of them.
Naturally in the way of entertainment and computer systems these different chunks can be mish-mashed together in a zillion different ways and still do the job, but in my mind the jobs they need to do is pretty clear.
As an off the wall example I bought a new printer a while back, think I told you, a Brother that interfaces via RF, USB or Ethernet. So-long Centronics cable... Substitute "speaker" for "printer" and that's just what I want right down to my speakers having the little built in web browsers so I can adjust them and see when they are out of paper. Or, er Headroom!
A rendering device is a rendering device. I want to send music to my wireless headphones or speakers. But I would also like to send them PDF's when my eyes get tired. Yes, my Kindle and maybe my ipad for all I know will read it to me but why shouldn't it use the same audio rendering device as my stereo. And TV. I guess, but I don't know, that it's already a done deal if you use an Apple computer and iTunes, but I loath every aspect of the latter from the UI to the sound so we need options.
The transition will take at most one generation of products. Using an automotive analogy, a high-school friend of mine was given a mint Chrysler from the late '40s that looked like something out of the untouchables and had a full sofa for the back seat. No, let's not pursue that... In addition to the casting couch it also had a "safety clutch". It was an automatic you see, probably one of the first, and they KNEW that folks wouldn't trust them so they put in a clutch that had molded on it's footrest "SAFETY CLUTCH". I read the manual (could it have been leather bound?) to see what the deal was and it said: "Don't use it." and went on in some detail about how it should never be necessary to touch it for the life of the car but it was available in the unlikely event that a failure should occur in the transmission.
Of course powered speakers are already around and widely used and acclaimed and yet have captured little (I think) of the "audiophile" market. If I were in the speaker business I'd put in a safety clutch consisting of a wired input in addition to the wireless LAN connection so that those Kilobuck speaker cables could be used for one more generation... AND, they would of course protect themselves from driver failure due to overload or defects and in addition I'd have it downward adjustable so the user could adjust the maximum time/frequency/level profile to protect his hearing if anything prior in the chain malfunctions including his brain. Sort of the ultimate safety clutch.
And naturally the network/amplifier part of it can be physically separate from the speakers as another transition mechanism allowing use of existing speakers but of course losing the crossover and Eq. advantages.
A lot of us would appreciate an optional preamp that sweeps up all our existing stuff and includes the networking to do things the new way would be nice and comfortable. Just using a computer as the source eliminates most of the need for such a thing but that seems like an anathema for many.
We CAN change! And it can be easy, safe and affordable. Back to the printer, this new $100 one prints 3X faster and at a higher resolution than my $1600 LJ4 did. I'm sure however that it has fewer maximum copies but at my age so do I! Having the speaker folks, the cable folks and the amplifier folks all be different people is bound to drive up our cost, increase our frustration and decrease the performance. Such a deal...
Words from a "hip trendsetter" wannabe!
Nostrarickus
> How about some real progress rather than just change?
I saw computer audio as a chance to get new functionality rather than as just a tweak for better sound. It has been progress for me. It has certainly encouraged me to buy lots more music.
> I think the market is heading that way actually. [computer audio over ethernet]
> There is the Apple Airport and the Squeezebox stuff certainly has it's followers.
Apple has signed up some hardware manufacturers for Airplay but I don't think any of those partners is setting the world on fire. The Apple TV device seems more central than the Airport express.
Logitech might have been able to make the Squeezebox protocols a market standard but they missed their window.
> The obvious missing element, which is more a mindset than anything
> tangible, is regarding speakers and headphones as rendering devices
> on the network similar to printers, scanners, storage...
This assumes that there is a single standard for how a rendering device for audio connects to the source of the data stream it renders.
> The transition will take at most one generation of products.
I'd say more like 3 or more generations. Maybe there are some 1st generation products out now.
It took quite a while for network printing to become simple to install and set up. It took years for wired networking and internet connections to become simple and foolproof to get going.
> Of course powered speakers are already around and widely used and
> acclaimed and yet have captured little (I think) of the "audiophile" market.
Once there are $ 50,000 to 200,000 "audiophile" models available, powered speakers might become more acceptable. Joking aside, I doubt that most high-end audio types will embrace powered speakers.
> Naturally in the way of entertainment and computer systems these
> different chunks can be mish-mashed together in a zillion different
> ways and still do the job, but in my mind the jobs they need to do
> is pretty clear.
There are various kinds of recent products that combine several functions. Some examples that interest me:
- AVI ADM 9.1 - active speakers with DAC, multiple inputs, remote control of volume and input selection
- JBL LSR4326P and 28P - active speakers with DAC, multiple inputs, remote control and DSP room analysis and correction
- Focal active speakers with wireless link for audio (I don't remember the model name)
> a Brother that interfaces via RF, USB or Ethernet.
> Back to the printer, this new $100 one prints 3X faster and at a higher resolution than my $1600 LJ4 did.
I too had an LJ4 in the past (and an Applewriter.) I have a Brother MFC laser printer now, connected via ethernet cable to our LAN. It just works for printing from my PC or my wife's PC. Several generations of development has made network printing much more routine than it once was.
> We CAN change! And it can be easy, safe and affordable.
Preach, Brother!
I have 3 DACs - one per room. I have no preamp in use. I have powered speakers in one room and 3-way active speakers in another room. JRMC on the dedicated MusicPC plays music in any of the 3 rooms. In our home office, either the MusicPC or my personal PC can feed digital input to the DAC in that room. I can control the JRMC on the MusicPC from any other PC we use including a laptop.
I'm certainly moving away from racks of separate components to using as few components in the audio stream as I can.
I needed to learn how things worked and do detailed consumer research to pick the parts and combine them. And it seems a bit ad hoc. An improved future might let anyone just pick components and combine them without understanding much about how they work.
> Words from a "hip trendsetter" wannabe!
There is still time for you to be a trendsetter.
Bill
Actually I think I'm just trying to convince myself Bill!
I'm usually near the rear in the parade of progress and I'd probably still be using records if the record companies hadn't soured me on them decades ago by stamping out horrible sounding, warped, melted glop made from regrinds and floor sweepings.
It may be cool to bitch about CD's in these parts nowadays but I actually was an early adopter even though they were very expensive (as was my CDP-101). But I could finally start buying music again even though they weren't as good sounding as the best records. Except for Sheffield Labs there were no longer any 'best records'. It was the worst of times for vinyl...
And...I still have them all, and with I think two exceptions, that "perfect sound" is indeed asymptotically approaching forever! And it's sweet to not have to turn them over or tape them!
So I'm good with digital and find that 'good' 44/16 sounds satisfying to me and I believe that most of the time the recording process is the limiting factor. I have also found that, especially on a given player, there may be variations due to the pressing process. The latter is a driver to computerize the data for me. But clearly not as strong of one as it is for most folks on this forum since I'm still dragging my feet. I also have a few hi-rez downloads and they typically sound good but the best are simply mesmerizing. It's a good, if confusing time for home audio.
Thanks for the links, just got done eyeballing the manual on the JBL, the only thing it's missing is a chocolate milkshake dispenser and built in WLAN.
Retro Rick
> It may be cool to bitch about CD's in these parts nowadays
> but I actually was an early adopter
Your reputation may never recover.
> if the record companies hadn't soured me on them decades ago by
> stamping out horrible sounding, warped, melted glop
> made from regrinds and floor sweepings.
> So I'm good with digital and find that 'good' 44/16 sounds satisfying to me
I have similar memories. The real-world LPs I wanted to listen to weren't that great. From about 1988 on, most classical music CDs have produced very enjoyable listening for me.
> Thanks for the links, just got done eyeballing the manual on the JBL,
There were several things of interest to me:
- speakers including a sub are connected via Cat5/6 cable that transfers control information.
- the remote volume control affects all connected speakers including a sub.
- Room correction measures and corrects for all connected speakers.
- You can upload response measurement to a PC via a USB device connection
- You can mess around with the room correction curve on a PC and download the correction info to the speakers.
- The built-in DAC and multiple inputs would reduce the number of boxes I required.
The DSP is aimed at reducing one response peak or elevating response in a dip. It does show the possibilities of thoroughly integrating DAC, DSP, preamp and power amp functions into the speakers.
> the only thing it's missing is a chocolate milkshake dispenser
> and built in WLAN.
Well, those models came out in 2006. Maybe it might be time for new models soon. However, since these are pro-audio products for the music industry, I think the dispenser should provide something stronger than a milk-shake.
> It was the worst of times for vinyl...
Sounds like "Tale of Two Cities". I think the best of times came later for CDs.
Bill
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