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In Reply to: RE: The 24/96 FLAC download 1st movement cadenza is at 445, so is the SACD's CD layer posted by John Atkinson on September 14, 2015 at 08:00:05
Actually I have analyzed the two different YouTube versions (though they are as close to identical as I can discern) and my early LP. I have explained why all of those are at A 440, and the YouTube versions are there for anyone to corroborate and you seem to have. Your repeated claims that they have been "slowed down" (identically and identically to my LP) remain without evidence. If the SACD is in fact fast there is no evidence that those versions were at one point fast as well. I have a CD on order, should be here this week. I have not found an SACD for sale. John Marks' comments were not limited to the SACD, were they I would not have commented as I don't own it. He spoke broadly about versions of the recording since 1973, which the YouTube clips (one of which was provided by Warner Music) are in contradiction to his claims, hence my comments on the subject. Furthermore he made claims without providing the most basic and definitive evidence, the timings of the music. The methods he used and you used are not definitive for the reasons I have explained, in any case it's really simple, if the SACD timing is different than others, they're different! If they are not, they are not. Your comments in the Stereophile column about the timing were hypothetical and did not refer to actual timings.
If the SACD is different I will retract my comments that apply to it and apologize to John to that end. My use of the word "fraud" was harsher than I intended, but John's refusal to address fundamental flaws in some of his claims and other incorrect statements certainly give the appearance of a lack of concern for the truth.
Dave
Follow Ups:
> Your repeated claims that they have been "slowed down" (identically and
> identically to my LP) remain without evidence.
Only if you ignore all the measurements that I posted and the fact - fact,
please note - that the master tape for the reissue was marked "A=445."
And when you say that
> The methods he used and you used are not definitive for the reasons I
> have explained...
I am afraid that all you are doing is revealing your own lack of
understanding of Fourier analysis.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
What measurements did you take of the YouTube clips before they were posted?
It is a simple task to adjust a tape speed, if the open-string A is at 445 on that master there is no reason that subsequent issues couldn't be at any pitch.
Dave
Atkinson did post a link to a snippet of the pitch elevated version and speed corrected version (link below). This is the only evidence I've come across of the pitch being elevated. (I think the lack of examples of the pitch-elevated version on the web was what made you jump to the "fraud" conclusion. Too bad SACDs don't include listening samples like CDs or MP3s.)
The snippet totally changed my perspective on this issue. Prior to that, I was on the fence, I thought the YouTube clips were at the original speed. Now I think they might be at the "fast" speed, pitch adjusted to A=440 in software. For the speed corrected part on the Stereophile snippet sounds "slower" to me, relative to the passage on the YouTube clips. (It also sounded a lot more realistic to me.) The non-speed corrected part sounds similar to me, speed wise (in spite of the pitch differences). But the playback time on the snippet is too short to be certain on this.
Whether the CD was done this way remains to be seen. As I stated elsewhere, I want to compare the CD to the original vinyl (both are at A=440), mainly whether the playback times are the same or different.
The bottom line, I think this issue might be more convoluted than a lot of us here initially suspected.
After reading the linked article, it appears that there may be pitch problems on some LPs as well (or a bad turntable on an LP rip).
All the more reason to identify each LP pressing, and count revolutions between two known points (start of first and last chords) of the first movement when these disks are actually being played.
It is not possible to adjust the timing separately from the pitch without loss of sound quality. This is even true with solo instruments, but definitely true when multiple instruments play together. It could be the YouTube MP3 artifacts mask these defects. Accordingly, the use of any MP3 or otherwise deliberately mangled (compressed) audio should be forbidden as the basis of intelligent discussion. MP3 is for deaf idiots who are walking on the sidewalk and about to step off the curb into the path of an oncoming truck.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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