Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

RE: Room treatment?

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In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by jimbill on November 13, 2023 at 21:49:40

I do think reducing room sound helps reduce the conflict between the spatial cues of the listening room and the recording. But there is nothing conventional room treatment can do to reduce the direct inter aural crosstalk between the opposite speakers and our ears.

The mattress trick does work! But only to a certain degree. There is still substantial leakage between the speakers.

And yes, dynamic speakers definitely work with a he BACCH SP

Follow Ups:

RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 12:52:11 11/15/23 (8)
I've heard the Bacch SP a couple times. I do believe I achieve an effect very close to that in my room. Perhaps the same idea but a little different, but still spacious in a way I could not achieve prior to my current setup. Of course I don't get head tracking, but really that is a pretty sophisticated setup with the camera watching your face and actively changing the DSP.

So my setup is the "Rooze" with the 3.7 angled 45 degrees and pointing at very reflective side walls with the tweeter end of the speaker about 9-10 inches from the wall. Otherwise, I have a lot of Vicoustic diffusers on the front wall and the sides up to the edge of the speakers ...absorption on the ceiling at the first reflection ... then more diffusers overhead and a bit behind MLP.

With strictly two channel recordings in some cases I get sound wrapping above and behind my head.

I have done some measurements and I do believe the arrangement blocks some of the interaural crosstalk, in addition to making sure the out of phase rear wave is scattered and delayed a long time before reaching the MLP.

Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
- RE: Room treatment? - Analog Scott 14:35:04 11/15/23 (7)
  I'd have to hear it and do an in ear measurement to get some idea what's doing. First and foremost if you are digging it. That's great! Increasing the separation between the speakers does reduce the crosstalk because of our head transfer function. Unless there is a cancellation signal as there is with the BACCH the lack of head tracking isn't an issue
  - RE: Room treatment? - josh358 09:15:17 11/16/23 (6)
    I've experimented with Rooze and I think you're explanation is correct. In the absense of direct sound, you're listening to the first reflections off the sidewalls, meaning that the acoustic sources are a good deal farther apart. That, as you say, increases the width of the stereo triangle that's set by interaural crosstalk.
    
    You're also delaying the first reflection (actually, listening to it), increasing the size of the acoustical space.
    
    Ordinarily, when you increase the separation of the speakers too much, you get a "hole in the middle" effect. I believe that the reflection off the front wall mitigates that.
    - RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 14:20:19 11/17/23 (5)
      In my case the front wall is all diffusion and the big TV is 4ft out from the wall and the rear wave of the speakers is blocked from coming directly into the MLP area without being significantly delayed and diffused.
      
      Is it possible that - as opposed to just placing speakers very far apart - the effect of blocking some or all of the interaural crosstalk with this arrangement is what eliminates that hole in the middle?
      
      I can say most definitely there is no hole in the middle. Note the added baffle extensions on the 3.7s and the blocking absorbers.
      
      Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
      Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
      - RE: Room treatment? - josh358 10:58:53 11/18/23 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 17, 2023 at 14:20:19
        
        That's an interesting question. You don't get a hole in the middle effect with headphones, but with headphones, there's no HRTF and there are no micromovements of the head, so you can't isolate IATD as a variable.
        
        But I think your speculation is a good one. Somehow, intensity or phase stereo is able to localize an object where the interaural time delay of the original object would be lower than that of the loudspeaker, but not when it would be greater. The fact that the arrival at the second ear doesn't come when it should is presumably one of the reasons that a phantom image lacks solidity. It seems that when the IATD is much higher than the object's location would demand, we get the hole in the middle.
        
        RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 05:15:44 11/19/23 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by josh358 on November 18, 2023 at 10:58:53
        
        On this track of comparing to headphones ... the angle of the direct sound coming from the side walls in the Rooze makes them kind of "nearphone". This is particularly true in my setup where the tweeters are way back close to the wall and you have the mid-woofer panel and then my 2ft oak baffle extensions. All that extension blocks a lot of the mid and high frequencies from having a path to the opposite ear. So the crosstalk to the opposite ear is greatly reduced compared to normal speaker listening.
        
        I started doing some measurements with a cork head and the Sonic Presence SP15 binaural mic a while back. I was going after another concept at the time. Now I want to see if I can isolate exactly what reaches the opposite ear, and the time difference. I think I can do this ... a Winter project!
        
        Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
        Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
        
        RE: Room treatment? - josh358 17:15:47 11/20/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 19, 2023 at 05:15:44
        
        Now that will definitely be interesting. :-)
        
        RE: Room treatment? - timm 06:29:31 11/19/23 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 19, 2023 at 05:15:44
        
        Lol. You are an animal MarcL.
        
        RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 06:34:43 11/19/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by timm on November 19, 2023 at 06:29:31
        
        Oh well ... animal ... retired engineer ... same kinda thing, right? :-)
        
        Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
        Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205

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