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In Reply to: RE: Nwer Quads are Made in China.. For some folks this matters.. nt posted by cawson@onetel.com on June 22, 2017 at 03:28:19
The larger Quad does give the speakers some more energy in the bottom but it is not a dramatic difference. For those that like Quads but don't think the bottom has enough will probably not think the large Quad makes much difference. They would still want subs.
I am not interested in the speakers playing louder they play play plenty loud enough for me and for most people that own them. The question becomes how do we get more bottom without messing up what we already love about the Quad.
Using any crossover no matter how it is implemented is going to sully the Quad to some extent you can 'hear' the filter. For those more interested in improved dynamics, increased maximum SPL and additional power in the bottom they may not care about this minor change in the speaker.
Personally I prefer letting the Quad run full range and crossing in the sub around 35-40Hz. If done properly the integration will be seamless even with rather modest subs. You get the additional extension and energy in the bottom without changing the character of the Quad.
The larger Quad still does not have enough weight and authority in the bottom. Compare the speakers to something like a Sound Lab and the problem is immediately apparent. The Quad is adequate in the bottom providing a good musical foundation and for most people this is good enough.
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IMHO, adding Gradient SW-D to the Quad ESL 57 is improving the low level details other than just playing loud and more dynamic.
I have my setup with Townshend Maximum supertweeter and the whole thing not a Quad ESL 57 by itself can dream of, of course I am talking about the "staging" and sense of acoustic (nothing and the nothingness).
> I am not interested in the speakers playing louder they play plenty loud enough for me and for most people that own them.
I'm sure that's right for most Quad owners. My comments were in response to BDP24's assertion: "Plus, if you add a pair of great subs (the GR Research/Rythmik OB/Dipole being ideal), the QUAD 57 will play considerably louder, relieved of playing deep bass.
> Using any crossover no matter how it is implemented is going to sully the Quad to some extent you can 'hear' the filter. For those more interested in improved dynamics, increased maximum SPL and additional power in the bottom they may not care about this minor change in the speaker.
I agree with you that adding a crossover before the main speaker to deprive it of low frequencies and adding a sub is a daft approach. Much better to choose a speaker that provides the range of frequencies you want in the first place, preferably without resorting to subs - certainly not to crippling the main speaker just to get it to play mid and top a bit louder!
> The larger Quad still does not have enough weight and authority in the bottom. Compare the speakers to something like a Sound Lab and the problem is immediately apparent.
I was also of that view until I listened to a Quad 2905 system, properly powered and well set up. I was astonished at how wrong I was in thinking that all Quads lacked decent bass. I'm sure there are some who think that the sound from these big Quads (2905 and 2912) still needs boosting in the bass, but it's likely to be a minority of owners of these models. I've not heard Sound Labs speakers.
Whoever said that adding the 2 extra bass panels (2912 compared with 2912) adversely affects the mid and top is surely talking nonsense since the extra panels do not in any way interfere with the central mid and top ones which are identical in both models.
All Quads have always had good bass if working properly, set-up properly and powered properly. Nothing new about that even with the new bigger speakers. One gets a little bit more that's all.
Some will want more bass and that is the reason Quad added more panels and it does indeed give the speakers more bass. But like anything there is a price to be paid no such thing as a free lunch. And the additional bass panels do change the overall balance and in some was the change is good and in some ways the change is bad. Just the nature of things.
I find the overall balance, the correctness of the speakers to be better with the smaller models. Funny that is how Peter Walker designed the speakers. I have yet to see anyone truly improve on Walker's work he was pretty good with speakers. He experimented with larger versions of the design and rejected them. Probably because it did not make that big of an improvement in the bottom and overall the smaller one just sounds better.
Some will find the increase bass of the bigger Quads just the right thing others will still find them lacking. In the absolute sense they are lacking in the proper weight and authority in the very bottom even the big speakers.
The '57 have a bass bump around 90Hz, and output falls off quite quickly after that -
having a crossover at 100Hz - or 150Hz if you prefer- removes this signal from the quad, leaving you with signal that the quad operating where it can work its magic- The sub can pick up the bass duties
The '63s have a very different construction for the panels from the '57s - I'll stick with the '57s-
I have no experience with the 2xxx series Quads ...
Happy Listening
Speaker resonance, if working to spec., should be around 65-70Hz. 90Hz tells me the film in the bass panel has gotten old and brittle raising resonance. If the panels are rebuilt the rebuilder used too much tension on the film.
Of course there is little bass below 40Hz and the region between 40-80Hz can have a rather one note quality but it is still quite tuneful and musically pleasing.
Agreed, the bass of the 57 has been found to be a little "wooly" to some owners. Not just rolled off in the deepest bass, but not very clean in the second octave (40Hz-80Hz). Removing that frequency range by installing a simple, single-capacitor high-pass filter---rather than an active electronic x/o, and adding a pair of really good subs for the bottom two octaves, and you now have a speaker capable of playing a little louder AND cleaner. This has been done for decades with great success by many Quad 57 owners.
For those preferring the 988 and 2805 Quads (instead of the 989 and 2905), the money saved by getting the cheaper, extra bass panel-less version will pay for the subs! More bass, deeper bass, and, more importantly, better bass, and the Quad itself will sound better when relieved of having to reproduce that low bass, the upper eight octaves now being more distortion-free.
I agree with you guys but I have the high pass filtering through the digital crossover.
The next thing I'm under consideration is DBX Venue 360 and which has multiple analog outputs along with other features for flexibility while dealing with/complicated setup(e the ESL.
Exactly. If one wishes more bottom to the Quad the smaller one with subs will produce a much better result that the larger version without subs.
The downside of this approach is system complexity. Some people will opt for the larger version just to keep things simple.
The bass is quite nice with the 63 type speaker. Not the last word of course but very good, perfectly integrated and musically pleasing which is the most important thing so I don't have any real desire for subs.
When I want my bass fix I just listen to Sound Labs. They have the best bass performance of any loudspeaker I have ever heard. They have great extension , are perfect in pitch something lacking in in the bass performance of most speakers, and they have bloom in the bass, again something lacking in the bass performance of most speakers. It is this bass 'bloom' that I find most enchanting. This is what it sounds like in the hall.
As incredible as the bass is with the Sound Lab there are some owners that are bass junkies still want more and add subs. Amazing.
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