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RE: definitive ribbon speakers vs analysis orion vs sound lab

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In Reply to: RE: definitive ribbon speakers vs analysis orion vs sound lab posted by doggrell on February 17, 2010 at 20:07:41

Whatever you choose, you'll have a fabulous system that few can even dream about!

That being said, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression you're relying heavily on theory and reputation here. I seriously suggest that you forget the theory and technology for a moment and *listen.* Not to the customized setup you want, that isn't practical, but to the closest lashups you can audition, with the music you want listen to. Because, really, there is no best loudspeaker, or amp. Satie has made some great recommendations and I'm reassured by the fact that his conclusions, reached independently, are very much like my own. But all of these speakers have personalities, personalities so distinct that it's possible to love one and dislike another, even if you respect its performance. Only you can decide whether you prefer for example the midrange purity and detail of an electrostatic or the imaging of a ribbon.

Finally -- I hesitate to mention this, because it's no fun at all -- but there's a drawback to frequent exposure to the 120 dB near field peaks of a concert grand, namely, progressive hearing damage. It's been estimated that up to 48 percent of professional musicians suffer from occupation-related hearing loss. I honestly hate this, because I love to play music and listen at natural levels, but now that I'm in middle age I'm starting to hear from friends, including audio engineers, musicians, and hi fi buffs, who are suffering with hearing-loss-related tinnitus, and judging from their descriptions it isn't something that you want. So there are benefits to listening to chamber music at the 95 dB peak levels you might measure at a seat in a small recital hall, rather than exhilarating living room levels.

Again, I hate to throw this in because it's a real bummer (says the once inveterate blower of Tympani fuses), but I thought it should be said.

Follow Ups:

tinnitus - doggrell 22:00:03 02/17/10 (15)
dear josh358
i suffer from hearing loss , tinnitus , and constant psycho-acoustic ringing in my ears . it really sucks . and it is my fault . i once sat front and center on the second row at a van halen concert right in front of eddie van halen's full stack of six marshall guitar amps without the good sense to use ear plugs . also practicing chopin etudes on my fazioli f228 three hours per day and listening to rachmaninof at 93db through my stacked samson rubicon r8a monitors with r10a subwoofer each evening and pounding away on my yamaha k8 controler keyboard while wearing akg k702 headphones strapped to my ears hasn't done me much good either . i would give anything to be able to hear with the ears that i had 35 years ago . i remember when i owned my first pair of magneplaners back then . i was much younger and i could hear every detail of every lp at even the softest listening levels . headphones are the worst destroyers of hearing . grand pianos are almost as bad . i think some people are naturally more susceptible to hearing loss than others . i often wonder if beethoven lost his hearing because he played piano and organ all day long from the age of five or if he just developed a disabling disease . you may well ask why i wish to build a super high end stereo if i can't hear well enough to derive total joy out of the music played back on such a device . the answer is for two reasons : i still love the music as much as i always have despite my diminished capacity to hear it and i am desperate to hear as much as can before the entire world around me goes completely silent whenever that might be . thank you for your advice and concern and please continue to tell everyone about the very real danger of hearing loss . is tinnitus inevitable do you think ? after all , mankind - who is a jungle animal that left the forest merely five thousand years ago - was never really meant to witness sounds greater than 100db more often than a few brief moments his entire life . i hear that much sound several times a day .
- RE: tinnitus - josh358 07:46:29 02/18/10 (0)
  Funny, I was wondering the same thing about Beethoven. But of course there had to have been some exacerbating factor, since lots of musicians hear music all day without going deaf.
  
  Women lose their high frequency hearing much more gradually than we guys do. Also, even before the days of amplified music, some people went deaf in old age, while others didn't. And the hi fi buff friend I mentioned never listened much to rock and has had KLH-9's since we were in college, which aren't exactly known for high levels. But he has terrible tinnitis and 40% hearing loss. Whereas I spent years in the studio listening to tape squeal, hung out in club booths, and regularly bottomed out the bass panels of my Tympanis, and so far have only normal age-related hearing loss. Last I checked I could still hear to about 14 kHz, and I have a bit of tinnitis but I only hear it in a quiet room. So I think there have to be genetic factors at play along with the environmental ones.
  
  What I'm wondering is whether you'll be speeding up the rate of hearing loss by playing at natural levels? At this point, I use a Rat Shack meter to keep levels to 85 dB or so, and I hate it, but when my friends started to go deaf I figured I'd better add loud music to drinking, smoking, lamb chops, and drugs on the list of fun things I can't do anymore. The way I see it, my hearing is reduced to FM stereo now, will be AM in a few years, then telephone quality. But even telephone quality hearing should allow me to enjoy music. As long as I can hear the notes . . .
- dear mr brian walsh - doggrell 01:03:13 02/18/10 (13)
  dear mr walsh
  thank you for your kind response . if you have any reliable information about the products i am pursuing ( or various alternatives ) then please feel free to recommend a few good items here on this forum or directly contact me via email . also i am available by telephone most days . your input would be greatly appreciated . though i have been unable to audition all of the components which i am acquiring , i have had sufficient experience with very similar designs and conducted fairly extensive research in a variety of recording and sound reproduction venues . i am hopeful that an amateur such as myself can somehow obtain reasonable value in today's outrageously expensive high end market . i am convinced that when it comes to fine electronics one pays for what one gets . that being said , some manufacturers apparently have an unrealistic perspective when it comes to retail pricing . there are several ways to skin a cat . i am certainly not up to date on all the latest equipment but i am willing to learn . thanks .
  
  Edits: 02/18/10
  - RE: dear mr brian walsh - doggrell 19:43:20 02/18/10 (12)
    dear satie
    thank you for continuing to share your experiences with me . there are so many options that a person might pursue when creating a home listening environment . you apparently derive as much pleasure from tinkering with high tech designs as you do from listening to the music they produce . i share that endless fascination over electronic gadgets . the journey to audio heaven is as stimulating as the destination itself . you have made some important points concerning value in the high end audio industry . my personal perspective on prices of high end audio gear is akin to my understanding of prices in the rare art field . for example a gallery may offer to sell me a silkscreen print by andy warhol for one million dollars but if i am the only buyer on earth and i am willing to pay just 500 thousand -- then what is the art work really worth ? similarly if ralph karsten produces the finest 500 watt tube otl power amplifier ever created and decides that he must sell each copy for 147 thousand dollars and i am the only person on earth willing to buy the unit -- but i will only fork over 69 thousand dollars -- then what is the true value of the atma - sphere ma - 3 mark 3 . 1 ? these are very tough economic times . cash flow is harder to come by than product . the real value of all material goods are being reassessed in each and every established market . a few years ago it seemed as if the sky was the limit in everything from housing to high end audio . now everything is negotiable . and you have made some very practical points concerning the possibilities of using one's instincts and sense of the experimental when assembling a new stereo system . you have laid down the challenge that anyone can achieve the same great level of sound quality that many audiophiles lay out 200 grand for with an investment of less than thirty thousand . and i could not agree with you more . such blatant monetary waste is often seen in the automobile industry as well . a ferrari 458 italia cost 250 thousand dollars and only seats two people . whereas a lincoln navigator suv is priced about 55 grand and will seat your entire family plus the dog . both cars are only aloud to travel a maximum of eighty miles per hour on the highway . so why do autophiles keep buying ferraris instead of lincolns ? hmmmmmm ... wait a minute ... ferraris are cooler and more fun and perform better ( slaps his own head ) doh !
    
    Edits: 02/18/10
    - RE: dear mr brian walsh - dazzdax 04:57:16 02/21/10 (0)
      Hi Doggrell, have you decided which speakers to buy? I think the Soundlab A-1/U-1 and the Apogee Diva are in the same league. The Diva sounds a tad more euphonic than the Soundlabs. Btw, those Atmasphere 1500W monsters are ugly as hell!
      
      Chris
    - RE: living artists - Satie 20:35:29 02/18/10 (10)
      Well the High End audio world is different from the art world in that industrial economics play a role. Unlike the Warhol print, the amp does not exist yet. If it did, it would be liquidated - sold at a bargain price at auction, or kept for demo purposes. So now you have the problem of commission art. Will the artist take the commission?
      
      A friend of mine was a buddy of Mark Levinson in the mid 80s. When my friend wanted a preamp with some new ideas implemented Mr Levinson soldered it together himself in order to avoid having to charge for labor and overhead. But that was a favor for a friend. I don't know that you could get your priceline style order accepted. If so, good for you and maybe they would do me a deal on a small MA-1 too....
      
      Are you telling me the sticker on the current MA-3 is $147K per pair? It was "only" $66K just a couple of years ago. Well, maybe more like 3-4 years.
      
      Hopefully one of my suggestions is useful. The DIY project suggestion is serious, it won't get you a Ferrari key chain but boy will the motor purr - and it won't even cost as much as a Lincoln.
      
      I have an engineering background so I do have an inclination to tinker and assemble apples with oranges to see how they count (measure) and taste (sound).
      - b & g neo8pdr - doggrell 09:25:50 02/21/10 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: living artists posted by Satie on February 18, 2010 at 20:35:29
        
        dear satie
        after reading your informative exchange with josh358 i intend to add three b & g neo8pdr units on each stereo channel in my home recording studio which will supplement the two stacked pairs of samson audio rubicon r8a studio monitors now employed on the left and right sides . i will run the b & g neo8pdr units without a crossover built in their own separate custom open wood baffles and situated next to each stacked pair of samson rubicon r8a monitors . my question to you is - how would you design the two open back dipole baffles which will each house three b & g neo8pdr units ( assuming the neo8pdrs are placed one above the other in a straight line ) . what would you recommend as the ideal materials to construct the baffle ? what would you recommend as the thickness and height and width of the proposed baffle ? do you have any problem with using these transducers in an open baffle array ? thank you for your expertise .
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - Satie 13:45:35 02/21/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by doggrell on February 21, 2010 at 09:25:50
        
        Yes the line array should be mounted as a straight line with no spaces between the drivers. Drivers should be mounted length wise.
        
        The main point is to have a minimum of 6 drivers per side. This will get the high end of the frequency response flattened out and extend the bottom to 200 hz.
        
        Second is mounting height - it should be mounted with the same number of drivers above and below listening height. Beyond 8 drivers this symmetry need not be maintained, but preferred if possible.
        
        Third is baffle width. I suggest at least 9 inches either side, or flaring backward sweeping baffle, like a shallow V shape or U shape, in which case you may be able to get away with a narrower baffle. VMPS mount their dipole array on the narrow end of a sharp deep V shaped baffle.
        
        Then there is the mounting. Front mounting minimizes diffraction problems. but rear mounting allows some minor horn loading that can increase dispersion and gain some sensitivity.
        You can also mount a waveguide/horn from the front later on.
        Use screws with bolts and barbed spring steel washers.
        I suggest front mounting on thin 2" wide rails of hardwood (maple is better than oak) or medium wood (poplar or birch), or on solid aluminum. On the harder materials use the gasket that comes with the driver or use a strip of window sealing foam as a gasket. Then the rails can be mounted onto the baffles, or can be have waveguides/horns attached to it without removing and remounting the drivers themselves.
        
        ugly amplifiers - doggrell 09:58:13 02/21/10 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by doggrell on February 21, 2010 at 09:25:50
        
        dear dazzdax
        i do not completely agree that the atma - sphere ma - 3 mark 3 . 1 500 watts per channel four chassis monobloc power amplifiers are totally ugly . aesthetics are not my main concern anyway . but - depending on my mood - all electronic components including huge planar speaker panels can often appear absurdly overbearing and downright offensively ugly . that being said it gets back to that age old maxim which applies to all things from women to audio gear - beauty is in the eye of the beholder . the ma - 3s strike me as rather cool in an industrial chic kind of way but i do not appreciate electronic equipment that is obviously designed to be " pretty " . i am proceeding with my final testing and auditions and research and i am favoring the final acquisition of a four panel array of sound lab majestic 945s ( two per channel ) powered with atma - shere ma - 2s or atma - sphere ma - 1s . tubes and electrostats .
        
        b & g neo8pdr - doggrell 15:15:47 02/21/10 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ugly amplifiers posted by doggrell on February 21, 2010 at 09:58:13
        
        dear satie
        thank you for responding to my questions about building a supplemental speaker array consisting of b & g neo8pdrs which i will be using simultaneously with my two stacked pairs of samson audio rubicon r8a powered studio monitors and my single samson audio r10s powered subwoofer . please bear in mind that i will be placing the mirrored pair of neo8pdrs right next to the stacked pairs of studio monitors for the purpose of filling out the midrange and upper frequencies which should add accuracy to the overall system . you said that i should use no less than six neo8pdrs per channel . would the employment of only three b & g neo8pdrs per channel be adequate for achieving a synergy with the existing monitors ? what do you mean when you say that i should front mount the b & g neo8 pdrs in a straight vertical array with nine inches on each side of the drivers ? i assume this implies that holes patterned after the inside dimensions of the neo8pdrs should be cut in the baffle so that each driver can be mounted by wood screws which attach through the surrounding metal border . is this correct ? should no fewer than six neo8pdr drivers be included on each side of the stereo array or is the recommended number of drivers used per channel dependent on the intended purpose ? thank you for your continued patience and considerable information .
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - Satie 17:58:48 02/21/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by doggrell on February 21, 2010 at 15:15:47
        
        There are two issues here
        
        The easy thing is the baffles, it is the baffle that should extend 9" or more on either side of the midrange array. This extends the bottom end and flattens the lower midrange response in the 300-600 hz region.
        
        Mounting - I suggest a rail for flexibility's sake. The rail assembly with the drivers can then be remounted fairly easily without removing the drivers.
        I don't like using wood screws for this purpose because 1. they crack hardwoods and even softwoods on occasion. 2. they come loose over time and can only be retightened a couple of times before they strip the wood. bolts are better as they can be retightened endlessly.
        
        If you want to supplement the midrange of the Rubicons, I think you need to use a crossover at least on the Rubicons to notch the midrange out of the speaker's operating range. Otherwise, there is going to be interference between the midrange output of the line array and that of the Rubicons. It is possible to aim the Rubicons and the Neo line array so that their output is in phase at the listening seat, but it would necessarily be not in phase outside of the listening seat. Furthermore, since the neo8 pdr can go as far as 14-16 khz, that means that the wavelength is on the order of 1" in that range and thus small head movements will get you in and out of phase coherency and into additive or subtractive areas. What is called comb filtering.
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - Satie 20:09:49 02/21/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by Satie on February 21, 2010 at 17:58:48
        
        There was one more thing to explain. The Neo8PDR, like most other BG drivers in this product line, have a sharply rising high end due to a cavity resonance around the 12-14 kHz region, and starting at roughly 7-8 khz. On the individual drivers it is enormous, appearing as big as 14 db on some FR plots. This peak cancels out as more drivers are added. By the time you have 6 drivers the Neo8PDR line array will not display the sharp rise but a minor mound of about 2-3 db. Thus when you want to use it without crossover, you must have the minimum of 6 drivers. If you put more, like 8 drivers, the resonance peak disappears entirely.
        
        For my original purpose of using the regular Neo8 drivers as a midrange for 300-5000 Hz with a 4th order crossover 6 drivers were sufficient so that the rise did not matter within the driver's working range. I also built 1st order and second order crossovers (passive at line level - the same as an active crossover just without a gain stage) where I equalized the remnants of the peak with the crossover. Now that I am playing it full range (I just started doing this a few weeks ago), I need to add more drivers to flatten out the remaining small hump in the FR plot. It is not heard with my tube pre and power, which sound perfectly balanced, but is noticeable with my solid state pre and power. If you must know, I have 3 preamps and 3 spare amps.
        
        As for the crossover for the Rubicon, since it is biamp-able, any tech can build you the high pass for the tweeter and low pass for the woofer that would notch out the midrange-treble range covered by the Neo8PDR line array.
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - mmlrot1 12:00:33 09/02/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by Satie on February 21, 2010 at 19:09:49
        
        As always there are compromises, but this is still my choice. Combining Martin
        Logan Summits with Magneplanar Tympani IV bass panels and the only subwoofer
        ( Eminent Technologies rotary sub) that can match the qualities of the Tympanis (transient response is awesome).
        
        Coherency is spot on (the Tympanis now reproduce the largest pipe organs with authority
        and there is no recordings that can overdrive this combination. The Tympanis
        are braced with steel and are bolted together, and also rolled of below 25 hz.
        The two panels should not move at all, solid as a rock, (a big improvement).
        
        Utilizing the best attributes of electrostatics (low level detail) with the Tympanis
        mid bass (unsurpassed in my judgement) gives one real power when needed and
        also once again coherency (these 3 three drivers are made for each other).
        
        I sang in choirs for years and this combination of speakers provides a believable
        illusion when combined with a center channel and 8 other surround speakers and
        most important a room that been designed for them. There is no away around the
        fact that a large and well trapped room (many bass and midrange traps with
        good diffusion for transparency and imaging is needed.
        
        The front main speakers have space all around giving the needed depth of field.
        
        I value my hearing and surround speakers reduce the necessity of listening at levels
        that can damage one's hearing (a real plus).
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - josh358 16:06:28 09/02/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by mmlrot1 on September 02, 2012 at 12:00:33
        
        Mmlrot1, what are you using to drive the surrounds? Judging by the number of channels, you're doing 11.1?
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - mmlrot1 09:02:26 09/03/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by josh358 on September 02, 2012 at 16:06:28
        
        I am using an Arcam AVR 600 to drive the Martin Logan Summits, center channel
        Martin Logan Logos, 4 Gallos Nucleus Micro (rear channels are paralleled) 2 on
        left channel and 2 on right channel. Side channels are 2 Gallos and 2 Spica TC-50's,
        also paralleled and this provides a 4 ohm load.
        
        The Magneplanar Tympani IV'S are driven by an Audio Research D400 MKII,
        controlled by a Mark Levinson 380S preamp.
        
        This is a quote from Peter Moncrieff of International Audio Review.
        
        In my job as a high end reviewer (and as a research scientist always pursuing perfection), I get to hear a lot of spectacular systems and industry demos at the cutting edge. Many of these systems cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. In many, just the electronics doing the same job as the AVR600 cost about $400,000 (seven dedicated monoblock power amplifiers, discrete separate outboard DACs, surround processors, EQ, etc.). As you see, I have been lucky enough to experience the very finest reproduced sounds this planet can offer, and I remember them very well.
        
        When I listened to the Arcam AVR 600 it provided the best sound I have heard, period.
        
        I have been following Peter Moncrieff reviews for 20 years and all I can say is he
        is right on about the Arcam AVR 600 (totally amazing what this receiver can give
        one (clean, transparent sound with the ability to drive complex low impedance loads).
        
        All these rear and side speakers provide a very uniform, ambient surround field that
        depending on the recording's venue (from small to extremely large) one feels
        like their in that venue.
        
        RE: b & g neo8pdr - josh358 10:26:25 09/04/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: b & g neo8pdr posted by mmlrot1 on September 03, 2012 at 09:02:26
        
        Thanks. I actually read that Arcam review, way back when.
        
        As always, your system is close to what I'd do if I had the option.

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