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I'm looking for recommendations on DIY corner horns. The room in question isn't very large (11.5' x 12', with 8' ceiling) so there isn't much room for speakers to be placed out away from the walls. As such, I figured that corner horns may be a good solution. So, any recommendations?Size is still an issue, as the speakers can't protrude into the room very far. I like tight bass (not boomy), and good mid-range reporduction, and I'm not to worried about the high frequencies. I'm more interested in bass range and accuracy than outright bass levels. Basically, the highs and lows can roll off a bit (but not too much). I plan to build an active parametric equalizer to use as a room correction device anyway.
I listen to Rock, Jazz, and Classical so the design would have to be versatile. The speakers will be driven by a push-pull tube amp of about 12W that will be feed by a Foreplay linestage. CD source with a turntable to be added later.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
Thanks for all the input. It's been very helpful.based upon the input, I've norrowed the choices to the Adire He10.1 or HE12.1 (I like the advantages of the coax driver) and a Pi solution. The Tuba and TLAH designs look cool, but they fail the WAF test.
I have no issues with carpentry. I've built a Fostex FE203 based BLH amoung other things. So, building a custom cabinet isn't a problem. However, cabinet design is still unknown. So I have a couplemore questions?
- With the Adire solution, how will elevating the cabinet and pointing the bass port at the carpet with the cabinet stuck in a corner affect the sound? I though about a pseudo-horn at the bottom that basically acts a big flair for the bass port, but don't know how that would work.
- With the Pi 7, will it actually work in a small room and how much space does it need? I'll post to the Pi forum, but I want to get some thoughs from here, since the Pi forum will probably by very Pi biased. I may or may not have 6 feet of clearance. In fact, I probably won't.
One advantage of a corner horn, is that it might have a better WAF in that the top of the cabinet could be used to diplay decorative crap. ;-)
Ran out of time. Be back soon...
> With the Adire solution, how will elevating the cabinet and pointing the bass port at the carpet with the cabinet stuck in a corner affect the sound?You can use the height to tweak tuning a bit. It's easy with the little screw on legs. I settled on 4", but 6" was OK. IIRC, my corner enclosure was around 3cuft at ~35-40hz, but the bottom port lowers this a bit. This is adjustable with the height. Also, I used a Heathkit A9 PP6L6, which effectively raises the driver Q a bit. (not as much as most SET)
> I though about a pseudo-horn at the bottom that basically acts a big flair for the bass port, but don't know how that would work.It makes more sense to me to use the enclosure itself to form the initial throat flair. See the link at the FR forum that GM pointed to below. You may have to register to look at the pictures.
If you ask nicely, you may be able to convince Wayne Pi or Dan Wiggins to suggest a box volume and tuning for corner placement and your room size. This is easy enough to do in LpsCAD.
Volume is ~ 2cuft with Altec 414.
Go to the Pi speakers forum and ask for Pi7 plans. You can see if they're for you.http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers
Wayne Parham is a pleasure to deal with and very knowledgable. Look for his posts here too.
http://www.audioroundtable.com/HighEfficiencySpeakers
I ordered the TLAH line array plans to build a pair for a room the same size as yours. See the link below. I have not built them yet, but I'm getting there. Cheers.
I have all the hardware for these as well, please let us know how you make out.
Hi PG, I bought all the drivers before I saw the plans. There are not out of my relm of skills but required more shop than I have at present. I will get to them this summer when I can set up outside. Cheers.
With a small room like you've got I would suggest you DON'T want cornerhorns.If you check Waynes forums at Pispeakers.com you will notice one of the top posts is a gentleman that spent about $6k and decided that the piece missing for audio nirvana is a good room to put his cornerhorns in.
After all your effort you would likely come to the same conclusion.
Grant.
If you are talking about James Johnson's speakers, they aren't Pi7 cornerhorns. They are stage Pi4 reflex speakers.
Greets!No doubt about it, the room dominates the response down low and bigger rooms allows for more speaker types/alignments/placement options and a more realistic reverberant soundfield, but this has nothing to do with whether cornerhorns are viable/desirable in a small room.
Corner horns are about getting the requisite acoustic gain down to where the room takes over, something many tube amp/HE speaker systems desperately need. Small rooms require speakers with either greater directivity control and/or proper room treatment, something that JJ has not bothered to consider/do in any of his HT iterations I've seen pics of over the last ~5yrs I've been following the HT forums.
Factor in that finding audio 'nirvana' in a multi-channel HT is a far more formidable undertaking compared to a stereo music rig and that he compounds the problem by preferring to listen at really loud levels and it's little wonder that he's been unsuccessful so far.
Anyway, I've built enough good performing corner loaded systems in rooms as small as 10 x 10ft that I'm curious what technical reasons you are basing your opinion on, if any.
GM
The technical reasons I'm basing my comments on is the corner horn designs that Wayne uses. If you look at his designs he doesn't build any of the horn into the cabinet itself. He uses the corner. Period.This requires a longer length of clear space in the room than designs that have part of the horn built into the cabinet. Wayne suggests a minimum of 6 feet clear space. It's a great design if you have the room to use it by the way.
Since you mention some corner horn designs that sound good in a 10 by 10 room why don't you share some of these plans with the rest of us. Unless of course it is Waynes designs that you are talking about?
Thanks,
The other GM.
Greets!Well, I don't know the details of his design, but with no driver visible it for sure isn't a BLH, ergo it's either some form of front loaded compression horn or positive taper TL, so if he doesn't recommend it in a small room then I'm certainly not as it may have too much midbass gain. BTW, how do you know Skipjack doesn't have at least 6ft of clear space?
Regardless, concluding that back loaded corner horns shouldn't be used in a small room based not only on one design, but not even the types of design I'm recommending is at best grossly misleading. Like any other alignment it must be tailored to the room/app for best performance.
Both me and GregB has listed designs suitable for tiny rooms, his corner loaded vented one and the one I originally recommended as well as the Altec/Klipsch BLH. Indeed, GB's 414 and a little series R would be a great choice for the latter, while single or dual 15"-18" drivers are my preference for the former.
There does seem to be some confusion as to what defines a corner horn though. Any speaker placed in the apex of a corner technically makes it one. The speaker's cab design just defines what type it is.
GM
Hi again GM.I hear you on the any speaker pointed into the corner using corner loading. That's basically what the Pi design is. I think Wayne means 6 feet clearance per speaker. That would mean any room less than 12 feet wide doesn't qualify.
If you had a choice of using a corner horn or something else in a small room what would you choose? You haven't said a "best" option yet, you just say you CAN use corner horns.
If my name was Skipjack where would I find the designs you're talking about that are suited for tiny rooms? That would probably be helpful ;-).
Thanks again.
Grant.
Greets!Skipjack?! I thought this was Spinjack's thread!
Again, I don't know squat about WP's design, but think about it, if you can't put two corner horns closer than 12ft, then you can't put ANY speakers capable of LF/midbass output closer than 12ft, so does he recommend only mono or high midbass (~100Hz) cutoff systems for <12ft wide/deep rooms? I seriously doubt it! Even a car's small Vb dictates an Fb lower than this.
Maybe we should make it a rule-of-thumb for small room speaker system design to only use 6" (max) FR drivers in little sealed wall/ceiling corner PA cabs on opposing corners. The sweet spot will be small, with severely limited seating options, but imaging/soundstaging will mimic headphones, minus the 'fullness' due to the missing octaves of course, though SAF should be stellar if finished to blend in.
There is no single 'best' per se since it's room, desired performance, etc., dependent. What I originally posted is my preference and design details are obviously component dependent. For a 'top drawer' published design, and my fave corner horn concept for any typical size HI-FI room bigger than a walk-in closet, do a search for the Altec 820.
Anyway, Spinjack has set way too low a $$ limit for it so there wasn't any point in suggesting it other than the basic concept. Some other good options have already been posted, so there's nothing more for me to do design wise until a final driver/cab style is chosen.
GM
Specifics would be helpful. I posted another message with some followup questions. The Adire seems to be taking the lead, at least in terms of space requirements and room interactions. If I need a 12' wall, then the corner horns are out (I have a desk, a book case, a CD stand, and a couple sitting chairs). Also, I think a 12" driver is pushing it in terms of space requirements. I would think that the cabinet required for a 15" driver would be massive in terms of the room.I'd like the driver height to be no more than about 30" off the floor (the listening chairs sit rather low). I have no problems with cabinetry, so complex enclosures aren't an issue. I like the idea of the corner horn becuase I get the impression that I can get good sensitivity and depth with a smaller driver, but if the enclosure is huge, the point is moot.
What are some of the good corner designs? What is the best approach? What do I need to know to design a custom enclosure (if that is the direction I need to take)?
Greets!Kind of tough to be specific with non-specific driver/alignment info. See my response to the 'other GM' WRT this 12ft BS. That said, I hope all this furniture isn't going to be on the same wall between the speakers. If so, either speakers with high directivity or some sort of thick, well damped 'dropcloth' to span between them will be required for best performance.
WRT space requirements, a 15" will fit in the corners just fine without extending very far out into the room if the cab is triangular shaped and can be tall and the larger size makes for greater directivity, a 'must have' for good performance in a small room. IOW, make it look like the corners are rounded off in a sharp transition sort of way.
Unless the driver(s) dictate a cab that must go almost to the ceiling to get the desired alignment, the top of it can still be used as a place to put a decorative hanging plant. I did one rather large install where the 'shelf' was large enough that his 'better half' had us add a connecting shelf so she could make what turned out to be a beautiful 'hanging garden', which BTW makes for a great way to damp higher order reflections.
WRT pointing you to good corner designs in your price range, I don't know of any beyond you choosing whatever standard Pi, etc., kit suits your fancy and sticking it in the corners with big wads of insulation to damp the rear/side cavities this creates, but then I don't try to keep up with all the DIY designs that folks post. I've scanned many a post though where someone built some speaker plan they found in a book/on the net/whatever, slapped a driver other than the recommended one in it, stuck them in corners and praised them to all n' sundry that it's the best system they've been blessed to experience, so as always YMMV.
WRT to you designing a good system from scratch using small, low Xmax drivers will require a steep learning curve and considerable experimentation, both using simming programs and actual prototypes, so unless you plan to make speaker design /building a continuing hobby.........
GM
What price range would be considered 'more reasonable'? And, no, the furniture will not be along one wall. ;-)I haven't pinned down a specific layout, but right now I'm thinking the bookcase will be between the speakers or on a side wall, the desk on the opposite wall , the chairs will be 'free' in that they'll be moved depending upon the use but will most likely be along a side wall, one of which will be moved into the 'sweet spot' when appropriate.
I'll do a search on the Altec dricers you mentioned in another post.
Well, the Altec 820 I referenced would set you back at least a couple of grand for used components, plus any reconing, etc., required, so figure $3k min.. WRT to coax drivers, the better ones go for $300?/ea., up to > $1k/ea..Regardless of what you wind up with, be it a coax or multi-way, you want good directivity control down to between 300-500Hz depending on who you're asking, so the mids/HF needs to be <90deg. To keep the design simple, this means mid/HF horn(s).
To determine what's best for your room, make a plan view (floorplan) to scale to see what angle misses anything along the front and side walls to behind the listening plane, with the understanding that you want a diffuse soundfield behind this point. Bookcases, plants, hanging rugs, upholstered furniture, etc., are ideal for breaking up/damping the higher orders of harmonic reflections, just don't overdo it and make it too 'dead'.
If you build a system that doesn't need corner loading per se and the furniture will still fit, then you can place the speakers equidistant along the walls from a corner so that it acts as a quasi-mono horn, which can later be augmented with a sub if need be. This layout may allow a wider minimum directivity angle also, for a wider 'sweet spot'. Really, this layout works well with typical FR driver BLHs.
GM
The Pi corner horn design is a great design. I love mine. I just wouldn't think them the "best" option for the room you describe.A great approach is exactly what you're doing. Get feedback before you start, then choose what "sounds" best.
I would definitley check out Pispeakers. There are many high efficiency designs there, the support is great, price is a consideration, and you're likely to finish with something you're happy with. I've seen a lot of positive feedback during the time I've been involved in the forum.
Best wishes with whatever you choose.
Grant.
Thanks. I'm sure I'll need some help whan I make a final decision. If I go with a Pi, then they'll be able to help me out. But if I go with a modified HE10.1 or HE12.1, I'll need some assitance with port and port-psuedo-horn configuration.THanks for the help.
> But if I go with a modified HE10.1 or HE12.1, I'll need some assitance with port and port-psuedo-horn configuration.
====
Not a problem.GM
So, what would be your suggestion then?
One of the things you'll notice on Waynes site is that you need 6 feet unobstructed space to use the design he's got. The reason is that the corner itself is the horn. If you look at the Klipshorn type design it has a horn built into the cabinet. It adds to the complexity of cabinet building compared to Waynes design but I would expect needs less corner as a result. I've got the Pi 7 cornerhorns which I bought from the builder because they didn't fit a larger room than you are using. He ending up building the Pi 4's and being very happy with them.I can understand why you'd like cornerhorns. The dynamics are great, the bass hits like a wall, and with the DIY option they are affordable. With the room you have I still think you would be happier with a regular cabinet design. Ask Wayne on the Pi forum what he would suggest for your room. He's got lots of good high efficiency options that will make your ears bleed if you want. You can always check out lower efficiency kits on any speaker building site as well.
IMHO
Grant.
It's not quite a corner horn, but I have a low tuned trapezoidal BR box up on 4" 'TV' legs with a large vent exhausting out the bottom rear corner. It's loaded with an Altec 414, and has a fostex FR driver in a front horn on top and a supertweeter. This works very well. In a way, it's like a big backloaded horn with a conical flare.GB
The front horn being the little de-whizzered Fostex with shellac on it?How does the bass section fare? The 414 is low Qts, pretty los Fs and big VAS, which I'm guessing = clean and dynamic, but hard to get flat response from. Where there a lot of iterations before you got it right?
Bass is deep and tight. I forget the measurements, it's been so long since I made it. I may still have my notes somewhere. IIRC the bass went much deeper than expected, like 30-35hz. I used it briefly for mono HT, and it did surprisingly realistic idling trucks and what not.Not many iterations on this one (for me). It didn't have a fostex mid driver at first since these were not easily available.
GB
Build triangular shaped speakers and place them in the corners of one of the 11.5ft walls. Select the angles so that they intersect just in front of the 'sweet spot', which should be other than the room's midpoint, with the seating against the back wall having the max gain. This 'kills two birds with one stone', maximizing room mode excitation and horn loading down to where the room gain takes over. ;^)With PP 12W, theoretically you'll need at least 98dB speakers for adequate dynamics and there's some other design considerations for best performance, so other than the RS drivers, what driver(s) combo do you have in mind?
GM
Those are currently the only drivers I have. I'm not too concerned with the particular drivers other than wanting to avoid beaming highs and wanting the bass to be fast and tight. I'm basically driver agnostic at this point, high efficiency and price being key considerations. I figured I'd pick drivers that matched the cabinet rather than pick a cabinet that match particular drivers.I thought about triangular cabinets, but I am not well versed on room and corner interactions and how that would affect a design. Hence my search for an existing (and proven) design. Although, a triangular design placed exactly into teh corners would be an ideal solution. Even better would be a way to 'aim' the front panel.
Greets!OK, I have specs for a number of RS drivers, but not the 40-1034, though if they are similar spec wise with the 12" 40-1035, they aren't suitable for corner loading except in an aperiodic cab and due to their high Qts won't be very 'fast/tight' in any other alignment. Regardless, AFAIK there's no proven design using this driver.
As for the 40-1219 piezo horn, they are fine for certain apps when properly implemented, but it's going to be tough blending it to a 12" with any kind of acceptable sound quality (SQ). Factor in that neither of these drivers have anywhere near enough efficiency..........
All things considered, I guess the easiest solution for you is to buy whichever vented Pi speaker kit suits your needs/wallet and build a triangular or trapezoidal cab based on the plans net volume (Vb) and load the corner same as GregB's speakers. Tuning may be different than the kit calls for, so some experimentation may be required to get the best in-room results. Another kit option is the Adire HE12.1.
Another possibility is to mount the HE12.1 or Pi kit components (or similar) into this style corner horn (see link) though actual dims may need to be different, but such details can be worked out later if you decide to go this route. At a more advanced level would be to adapt a Fostex or similar back loaded horn (BLH) for corner loading.
GM
GM wrote - At a more advanced level would be to adapt a Fostex or similar back loaded horn (BLH) for corner loading.+++
Some people have reported that reasonably priced 8" Fostex drivers work just fine in the big fun horn... no adapting required.
The Big Fun plans are pretty good, so for this option, the only advanced thing SpinJack would need would be woodworking skills.
The only downside I can envisage (compared to other BLH) is that they will take up a fair chunk of the room.
Greets!'Adapting', as in adapting it for corner use in a small room. The Big Fun horn has too much gain, and as you noted, way too big for a small room.
GM
RCA-Fan's pipe-horn should be very good (see Gallery) - but is ita lso too much /too tall for such a small room?
Assuming the K-slot Vs stock Fostex is the FR you're referring to, it would need to be attenuated somewhat in a small room, with the amount based on how far out into the room they can be placed and what LF room gain curve is. WRT too-tall or not, that's room layout/personal preference thing. I personally prefer to have them a bit higher than ear level since we're normally positioned below a stage act, etc..GM
yep GM -anyone besides Moray building original K-type?
Freddy
?? Seems like you'd know most/all of them. You know I don't keep up with the Karlsonites since I prefer true midbass horns. I do like the slot for BR/TL/ML-TL vents though. Just wish I had the math smarts to figure out how to calc/sim the results.GM
given enough room size I might prefer true midbass horn - but coupler (if don't get funky) are interesting - like 'em best with coaxialgot any Zen feel for how to build a Karlson type past original?
heres a commercial bin by Yorkville ~11.2cu.ft. at 1W outdoors
unity 1W
perhaps due to ingorance - I tend to like low moving mass in almost anything - is this just stubbornness?
Freddy
Well, the little 40-1197 BP one I mentioned to you was a reverse tapered TL folded back on itself to load the driver, but it will be larger than an equivalent BW multiple reflex one due to the need for the pathlength to either be longer or have a much higher aspect ratio, which may make the final front section's shape too far off to get the desired slot shape/area. If/until I ever get around to experimenting, I'm clueless as to how much taper can be tolerated.
with traditional K, Carl extends height aspect, leaving ~same slot height - theres a 1/4 ellipse reflector within that enclosed portion- dunno if he gets a bit more LF-smoother mids or both - may be very subjective to builder/listener.tough to do A-B switching of two Karlson as one not hooked up may emit energy from midbass into lower midrange.
Beta 12CX plays 'ok" in X15 (~2.1cu.ft. rar chamber)- could use lower Q although SP15A has enough mids to mask 'some' LF peaking- same story for Sigma 18 in a K-type with about 4cu.ft. rear chamber - also lower Le could help on the 18.
heres a near-slot by Lapaire - is this hinging just pressure distribution effects? - bottom green trace is towards floor.
graph slot
I assume so. Is this an in-room plot?GM
in-room -assume John had mic pretty close to aperture
OK, this explains the 'hinge' effect, basically he's measuring the standing waves off the floor and the losses as it folds under/around the cab, whereas higher up he's measuring the increased gain of the slit.The Karlsons are like 1/2 space LF/midbass horns in that they really need to be measured at least 6m ground plane to see what the real FR is.
GM
will see if can get back 6m sometime and compare to 2mBest,
Freddy
Oh, I forgot to add...I currently have two Radio Shack 40-1034 12" woofers and two Radio Shack 40-1219 horn tweeters that I can use but am by no means tied to. Right now I've driver agnostic. Though, I would still like to keep the costs reasonable (no $200 drivers).
http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/44
Thanks for the lead.The guy that posted a review of the Pi 7's stated that a 12x12 room is too small for corner horns. Is that the general opinion? If so, my 11.5x12 room would not be a good candidate for corner horns. Are corner horns a good solution for my small room or not? If not, what would be a good solution (given that the speakers need to be placed against a wall becuase of space constraints)?
at www.billfitzmaurice.com
Would the Tuba 18 mesh well with the TLAH? I'd still need something to take care of teh higher frequencies.
Tuba 18 and TLAH are what I have in my livingroom.
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