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In Reply to: RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions posted by Todd A. on October 12, 2015 at 07:26:31
My friend the photo up above are the Sachiko double-back-loaded horns I have been using with various single, fullrange, drivers since 2008. I've used and removed Fostex FE206E, FE206ES-r, FE208ES-r and Lowther DX4 drivers. I had everyone of those speaker's cones treated ---{except the FE208ES-r drivers}--- with a special, proprietary, 7-step treatment that greatly improved their sonics! But I was never satisfied with the sonics until I installed Dayton PS220-8 drivers with the cone treatment applied. I highly suggest:
1) Forgetting those Madisound BK-20 cabinets.
2) Use the Dayton PS220-8 instead of Fostex FE206EN drivers.
3) Use the Frugal Horn link below, click on the word Plans below the words Spawn Family and look for Kirishimas.
4) Build the Kirishima which replaced my Sachikos and were meant to use the FE206EN, like my Sachikos were meant to use the FE206E drivers.
As I stated up above, I use Sachikos with Dayton Audio PS220-8 single, fullrange, drivers that same cone treatment applied and I'm amazed at what I hear every time I turn on my audio system! With these treated PS220-8 drivers in the Sachiko cabinets I can play something such as small ensemble playing chamber music or Guinnevere by the acoustic group Crosby, Stills & Nash at low SPLs and hear all the inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre that one usually purchases single fullrange drivers in horn cabinets to hear.
Yet on the very next cut I'm able to play some seriously loud Progressive Rock music such as Perpetual Change by Yes at 100dB+ SPLs and I can still hear that same inner-detail, delicacy ---{if there's any delicacy in the music to be heard}--- correct harmonic tone, color & timbre plus with huge, wide dynamics and lightning fast transients! The music somehow retains a sense of ease, is crystal clear and without the slightest hint of any "Lowther Shout" or sense of driver strain one often detects when single, fullrange drivers are played too loudly!
How many speakers do you know that can do powered by a 40W/ch, SET tube amp and sound great when playing both types of those musical genres? This Sachiko/PS220-8 combo sounds like you're listening to a pair of Quad ESL speakers, but Quads with a 95dB sensitivity rating & much, much better bass & treble extension! That analogy will give you just a hint of an idea of what type of sound quality I'm talking about. In all honesty this sound really almost must be heard to be believed. The best part is these speakers are easily duplicated. So anyone can either build a pair of these exact same speakers for themselves or have a pair built for them, just by clicking on the link Frugal Horn below and downloading the Kirishima plans! Of course you can use the Fostex FE206EN "if" you prefer, but I wouldn't...
I hope I've helped you with any questions you might have and please feel free to ask me any additional questions here on The Asylum or via private email if you prefer.
I'm listening to:
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Follow Ups:
Based on what I have heard so far of backloaded horns I think I prefer how my Odeons (and also the Dynavox 3 series) do it with a down firing horn rather than a front firing horn.
Brad,
I've read what you've written about your Odeon speakers! I was especially interested in how natural you've found the Odeon's to sound accompanied with inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre -- my paraphrase of what I think I remember you saying , yet amazingly enough you also found the Odeons to be free of any " horn coloration(s)!" Since reading what you've written about your speakers, the Odeon brand of horn speakers was placed very high on my list of speakers I'd go out-of-my-way to personally audition!!! I can only hope the day arrives when I'm able to do so...
I'm listening to A Trick Of The Tale by Genesis
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Odeons are the first horn speakers I ever heard that were free of the usual horn colorations. They are not the only ones now that I have heard that pull this trick (Acapella does and so does Lansche...all German). Interestingly, they are all spherical horn designs rather than the usual exponential horn or Tractrix designs I have seen. Of course the best I ever heard is the Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian but this is mega buck range.
I have also heard some very good Western Electric speakers and replicas and they sound great but ultimately a bit too colored IMO. The resonances of the horns are just too obvious.
This backloading seems to take care of a lot of this issue as the midrange is still basically direct radiating and not in the throat of a horn, however, I do not like the highs on nearly every single driver Lowther, Fostex etc. driver and I have heard all the best except Feastrex...including Voxativ and Fertin etc. That is why I like the two-way concept with 1st order xover from Odeon...use the main driver only up to a couple KHz with gentle blend to a nice horn loaded tweeter. Tune Audio from Greece makes a speaker very similar to the Rigoletto that uses a Fostex in a backloaded horn with a Fostex horn tweeter as well. Also about 93db and an easy load and moderately sized.
Now the big hybrid Odeons (hybid because the bass is a special vented box rather than horn loaded) are true three-ways and they too are free from coloration and I think it has to do with the fact that they use a normal cone driver (Audax Aerogel) in a horn without extreme compression. That plus a really rigid solid wood horn...far better than plastic or metal, IMO.
The other thing is that the compression is not so extreme and we are talking 95db speakers rather than 100+ db speakers. Their No. 32 and 38 are among the best speakers I have heard...my La Bohemes are right with them down to about 40hz but don't do the last octave.
There were two pairs of Odeons available in Minnesota not too long ago. One was a beautiful pair of my La Bohemes and the other was a pair of the equally beautiful La Traviata (not the one reviewed in Stereophile but a true horn) that is one size smaller (8 inch vs. 10 inch main driver and a bit smaller tweeter horn). They wanted 3.5K for the Traviatas (14K new) and 6.5K for the La Bohemes (20K new). If they hadn't been overseas for me I would have probably snagged the smaller pair for my downstairs system (it is the only ones I have ever seen on the internet). I have only seen one other pair of La Bohemes so these older Odeons are very rare. The Riogletto is quite easy to get in Europe and for relatively low money.
Brad that $20K pair of Odeon La Boheme speakers are still for sale in MN for $6.5K! Amazing huh? If I had $6.5K available, I'd own those Odeon La Boheme speakers already...
I'm listening to: My Favorite Things by Joey Alexander
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Thanks for all of the (very) helpful information, Tom!
I'm certainly not married to the idea of using a Fostex driver or any specific cabinet design yet. Your speakers are works of art, by the way! Are those veneered or solid hardwood? Those Dayton drivers certainly look like contenders, too, although getting six foot tall speakers in this living room is going to be a very tough sell...
I'd like to know more about the treatment you're using on your drivers. Incidentally, the amps used will be an old set of VAC V-100 monos (4-KT88s each) that I run in triode mode for about 30 WPCH. They're out being recapped right now.
Let me mull this over, and I'll email you directly once I get a clearer vision of what is workable in this room. Thanks for the offer!
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