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Recently acquired a pair of Sachiko double horn cabinets, the plans of the speaker can be found at the frugal audio site. The speaker is originally designed for the Fostex FE206E, however I located a pair of Fostex 208 Sigma, and the designer of the cabinet has indicated that this cabinet will work for the Sigmas.The plan is to find another SET amplifier to use with the Sachiko, as I no longer have the Electra-Print 300DRD amps that I had awhile ago. I do have a couple of modest amps here, one a 2A3 SET, and another a 6L6 SEP. Both sound decent on these speakers, but not really a long term match.
One afternoon, I decided to see what my Jeff Rowland Consummate pre-amp and Model 5 amplifier could do on these speakers. I have often said that these pieces have many tube like qualities, and are extremely nice sounding SS electronics.
OK I got them hooked up, these pieces stay idling in my rack, so they are well into their warm up curve. Played a few well known tracks, the sound was interesting, but not what I was looking for. I swapped out the Monarchy OCC speaker wire I was using, and dropped in some silver ribbon speaker wire, this was the wrong choice! Ugh. I suffered for awhile, but ultimately out came the silver. then I inserted a run of Analysis Plus Oval 9 speaker wire, and things got interesting. The tonal balance is quite nice, lots of low level detail, very good imaging, nice dynamic contrasts.
Really there is very little to fault to this pairing. The big class AB amplifier is producing some fine sound on these speakers. It doesn't have quite the presence and liquidity of the best SET amps, but it is on par or better than an inexpensive SET. I suspect a traditional tube push-pull is going to be hard pressed to surpass it. I suspect that a bit more fine tuning with interconnects and power cords can close the gap in terms of midrange performance. I currently have two sets of silver ribbon interconnects in the system, and the power cords are a copper/silver hybrid. So there may still be some incremental improvements that can be found.
The only issue I do have is volume control. The Consummate uses a relay/resistor volume control, although the steps are not terribly large. However the amp is 150 wpc, and when combined with high efficiency speakers it becomes difficult to fine tune volume. Possibly a pair of in line attenuators will alleviate this issue. Thats the next step in this journey.
The lesson I learned is that high efficiency speakers do not absolutely require SET or even low powered amps to sound good. Yes I love the sound of a good 2A3 or 300B, or a well designed chip amp. But it appears that a well designed Class AB solid state amp can bring the goods too.
Regards
Mister Pig
Edits: 02/28/10Follow Ups:
Thanks for the very interesting and useful info about the various amp configs you used.As someone else noted, high-power SS amps back in the day had horrible sound at low power outputs. Many also had horrible sound at high power outputs. Crossover notch distortion, slew rate, truckfuls of negative feedback, and weak current output took their toll! If I remember correctly, Ampzilla was the first, or among the first, of the commercial manufacturers to promote high slew rates. I remember John Curl, back in the early 70's, being disgusted at the state of commercial amp design, and doing what he could to move it forward. It's good to see that some of that then-innovative thinking is now accepted practice for high quality amps.
I have a question about the performance of the speakers. The horns clearly are a series of straight pipes of successively larger diameters, coupled together. What FR anomalies have you heard or measured due to this design?
Edits: 03/01/10
All of the full range driver frequency plots I have seen tend to be fairly ragged. I have not plotted one for the Sachiko yet, but plan on doing so sometime this year. The above curve comes off the Frugal Horn site, and shows the curve up to 1K. Basically its concern is to show the effects of horn loading.
It's an ugly curve isn't it? However, it does not sound like it looks. Which makes me wonder at what level do these issues become audible, and how important is other factors such as point source operation, and the continuity provided by a single driver vs a traditional multi-driver design is. Of course, single driver guys will point to the absence of the crossover, and what a detrimental effect it has, and there is something to be said for that line of thought.
Anyways, the practical limitations to this design is that its complicated to build. Lots of cuts and wood, but not a bunch of difficult angles. perfect for an aspiring DIY'er. I have read of people building attractive and solid Sachiko cabinets armed with only a skill saw two clamps and a straight edge.
Lots of wood, as I recall the build sheet calls for 3.5 or 4 sheets of 4 by 8 foot birch plywood. Thats a decent investment in itself.
The bass only extends to 50 hertz, which is fairly common for high efficiency 8 inch drivers. But the quality of bass is excellent, with admirable clarity and tone. While fine for most music, they would need to be supplemented with a subwoofer for true full range bass. That task initself can be somewhat difficult.
The driver this cabinet is designed for is the Fostex FE206E. While an excellent budget driver, they cost in the $90 range, its got issues. I had them installed in this cabinet, and they tended to be a bit light in the lower midrange,and the lower treble is a bit unrefined. When I got the chance to install a set of first generation Fostex 208 Sigma, I gained a significant level of performance. It clearly was a superior driver in all facets, from the bass to the treble it trounced the 206E. So finding an appropriate driver for this speaker cabinet can be a bit of a challenge. The best 8 inch Fostex drivers are mostly out of production now.
Finally, the larger driver does not pinpoint image to quite the same degree as the smaller ones do. The 5 inch series of drivers excel at this but don't have the bass response or dynamics of the 8 inch driver. The image characteristics are still superb, and I have no issues with them. But the smaller drivers edge them in this regards.
I like large BLH horns, there is no getting around it. A friend of mine hasa a set of conical horns with j-tube bass bins that are without a doubt superior, but that is woodworking quest to complete them. Also significantly more cash to find the appropriate drivers for that set up. But high end horns can be better than these speakers, but its going to cost some serious coin to build them.
Regards
Mister Pig
"It's an ugly curve isn't it? However, it does not sound like it looks. Which makes me wonder at what level do these issues become audible"
Are you saying that it sounds just as good to you as a well-designed curved horn? If not, what do you see as its shortcomings?
The frequency curve supplied by Frugal audio is not as smooth as a person would expect. Thats all I meant. It sure does not sound as ragged as what they show.
Regards
Mister Pig
I know many using such. I have a 104db horn rig with 600 watt SS. Also 1000 watt icepower on 104db bass horns. I use SET but HI-EFF isn't only for SET amps. No mater what the converted say. SET sounds great but other amps can sound as good or better on hi-med eff loudspeakers. We pick what we enjoy sometimes system mismatches can cause poor sound. But do not toss the babie out with the bath water. And to ignore so many amplifiers only to focus on one narrow segment of whats available is short sited to say the least.
"I know many using such. I have a 104db horn rig with 600 watt SS."
Indeed, and many old school hornys who started with horns back in the 60s and 70s used and still use SS amps.
I've had a chance to hear them driven with a Nelson Pass high power amp, and more recently, a several hundred watt per channel Classé power amp. I was pleasantly surprised in both instances.
I still prefer driving my Horns with a First Watt F1 or various low power tube amps, but the large SS amps worked.
I guess I formed my prejudices based on the Crowns, SAE's, etc. I was exposed to back in the early 1970's.
and the only one I've tried.
Last summer when I picked up a pair of Cain & Cain BEN single horns, I was about to borrow a couple of SETs to experiment with driving them. But I still had a pair of Halo JC-1s that drove my former large, multi-driver speakers. So I hooked them up just to see what happened. That experiment lasted only a few minutes, I could not find any type of music that sounded good.
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes!" T. Monk
This might be an exception to the rule, and possibly there are only a few SS amps capable of this arrangement.
Earlier this afternoon I borrowed a pair of Rothwell 10dB inline attenuators from a friend of mine. Placed them between the Consummate and the Model 5. It appears to be giving me enough adjustment on the volume control to make this experiment work.
Actually, as I got some time on the Rothwells, things started to sound better. It may be that the Consummate is able to open up a bit, I can get the volume step up to 17, instead of the 1,2, or 3 I was limited to. The midrange has filled out more, gotten a bit more meat on the bones. The higher frequencies became better balanced with the rest of the spectrum. There really hasn't appeared to be any downside. Everything images nicely, bass response is detailed and quick.
So far this is a good combination. Will it be ultimately what I choose? I really can't say, but it does sound a lot better than some other SET/HE speaker configurations I have heard before.
Regards
Mister Pig
MP,
IMHO, you just need to find the 'right' SET for them. :-)
nt
Cut-Throat
There have been posts about Avantgarde speakers pairing well with BAT amps and not doing well with some SET's. Too bad that you don't have the 300B DRD's now. I tried a Mac amp on PHY drivers. :-( Synergy is the key
and ya don't know till you try.
This is not a complaint, just a memory from several decades ago that some may find amusing.
An acquaintance had just acquired a new amp and wanted to show it off so he invited sever people to come over. In a modest apartment, he had a pair of Klipschorns and a brand new Crown DC-300. Which he proceeded to crank until it was clipping. My ears rang for several days after that experience; I'm surprised his lease was not canceled the next morning!
It was pretty nasty at lower levels too - in those days crossover distortion was not considered important. Glad you can a better experience with high power these days.
The salesman at the audio store thought it would be fun to turn it up. He says it drove him and his father from the listening room.
He still remembers the thirty-five year old experience like it was yesterday. And no, not fondly.
Crown amps are what drove PWK to change. i.e. ,screw up, the xover in his speakers...he had a lifetime warranty and too many drivers were being blown with Crown amps.
I've heard a DC300a clip into a pair of K-Horns. It is memorable. After about 35 years I remember the experience vividly.
nt
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