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In my project to digitize all my 500+ LPs, I have tried three different ADCs:
#1: Korg MR-1 recording to DSD
#2: HifiBerry ADC (24x192 pcm)
#3: Sony PCM M-10 (24x96 pcm)
Only requirement was not to need a computer for ripping and not to spend more than a few hundred on an ADC.
Disappointingly #1 still sounds the best, particularly in bass (goes deeper) and peak vocals (much smoother).
I say disappointingly because of the down sides of DSD - storage space, fewer native playback options, impossibility of editing out clicks.
But I am going to stay with DSD because if there is one thing I detest when listening, it is grit in the high volume vocals.
But why??? I really don't think it is my imagination. I have been side by side, back and forth, comparing many digitizations with all other equipment identical. I _wanted_ the PCM to sound better, but it is not quite as good as the DSD.
So my question: Could it be headroom? Seems to me that is where the difference lies. It can't be digitial "resolution" right?
Maybe John is onto something about FIIO players encoding _everything_ to DSD during playback?
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
Follow Ups:
OTOH, I prefer PCM myself, and it's hard to argue with Amir here:
View YouTube Video
The DSD waveform obviously shows the noise pushed out of the audible range (through noise shaping) but then Amir goes on to say this is what gets sent out to the amp and speakers which can't be good. Is that correct?I thought the out of band DSD "noise" is filtered by the DAC. Is this not true for DSD DACs? I know that Roon and other players allow me to choose a few different DSD filter types. But what about the DAC itself?
I wonder if this "noise" is actually seen at the output of a SACD player or DSD DAC.
On a related note, I found it very interesting that the same "noise" was embedded in the PCM conversions done by PS Audio causing the PCM file sizes to bloat way out of control. This is not normal and must be a flaw in PS Audio's process. I've downloaded various 24/192 PCM albums over the years and they are no where near as large as the ones from PS Audio [probably because they don't contain the noise].
As an aside, I never jumped onto the SACD / DSD bandwagon except for some experimentation. I always felt that SACD and DSD were artificially smooth sounding.
Edits: 03/22/22
and claim theirs represents "The Truth". ;)
How are you digitizing your vinyl in a way that it will be usable for playback later? How are you capturing or inputting metadata like track number, track title, album title, artist, album art, etc?
Wouldn't you need a computer for that?
After ripping, the files are transferred to computer for possible processing with audiogate, then VinylAsylum pro for declicking, track splitting, applying metadata.
I try to avoid copying to PCM -just never sounds as good. Both the Sony and the Korg recorders work well for playback (either for line out to main system or with headphones) if I want to avoid computer use completely, which I often do.
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
Ah, that explains it. If the albums and tracks are organized with usable metadata it should aid with playback from various devices. The raw files alone would just be a mess of raw files ;-)
I will probably give up on the track splitting. I think it is more trouble than it is worth.
Just the album artist, album name, and side# are enough because easy to find the track metadata online if I really want it.
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
That's what I do. I don't spend the time splitting out individual tracks. My thinking is that I don't listen to LPs as individual songs so why should a copy be any different?
Very time consuming requiring much more effort but my thinking is the LP has individual tracks and each deserves its own descriptive metadata including track number, title, artist, playtime, art, etc. Otherwise this information will not be available in your player software. You'll simply have one huge hot mess of a file - or two for both LP sides ;-)My digitized vinyl is fully compatible just like my downloads and CD rips with all metadata info visible from within my player.
Edits: 03/10/22
My LP recordings are converted from raw WAV into FLAC files edited to normalize loudness and insert basic metadata. With my smart phone (which doubles as remote control for the bridge/renderer) I can quickly search up the track listing for almost any LP I own if I really want to see information about a specific song. I may eventually spend the time to split out individual tracks but for now I'm prioritizing getting my LPs recorded and stored on the NAS with attributes including artist, album, side1/side2/etc., and cover art.
Tom
too much effort for gain in that respect. And I have only a few digitized albums.
As you mentioned you can always go back and split out the tracks later.I enjoyed the experience of digitizing a couple dozen LPs and then I decided it was too tedious for me. But in my case, I had many of those albums already available on CD which as you know are much easier to RIP.
Have fun! Until it's no fun anymore. Who knows, you might have the temperament for this sort of thing. I didn't last very long before frustration got the better of me ;-)
Edits: 03/11/22
I probably have the temperament. Years ago, when I owned paired Sony 300-CD Jukeboxes, I recorded about 400 CDs using a Pioneer PDR-555RW CDR recorder before I gave up. I had purchased a new turntable, cartridge, and phono stage and the sound was so much improved that I realized I should re-record all those LPs with the new setup. But the recording process with the CDR recorder was tedious so I didn't.Many years later I'm now playing LPs with an even better sounding vinyl setup, incorporating a well-designed de-clicker, and recorded at high resolution so the results are quite good and worth my time and trouble.
Edits: 03/12/22
Verry interesting. Could explain some of the differences I hear in high signal strength passages - not just grit but "congestion" in loud complex music passages.
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
Thanks for the link. I may have already pointed to a related commentary about Headroom Management. Although this is from Roon Labs, they do a good job of describing the fundamental issues.
Are you digitizing LPs? Or making live recordings?
I am working on my 500+ LP collection. Between the ultrasonic cleaning, the actual digitizing, then naming all the files, converting to PCM if I want to de-click, etc. it is a lot of effort.
I will invite the 2 or 3 local used vinyl shops to purchase the collection when I am done. Whatever they don't want will then be dumpstered.
I acquired the records long before spotify, tidal, qobuz, etc. existed...
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
I digitized a couple dozen LPs before I decided I didn't have the patience for it ;-) In my case, I had many of those titles already on CD so they were easy to rip to the computer. And then Tidal & Qobuz came along so they're also available via high quality streaming services.I digitized my vinyl and removed major clicks and pops manually. Otherwise, I just digitized them as they were. I would digitize an entire side then break up the tracks manually and insert all the metadata manually as well.
I understand there is vinyl digitizing software that will help automate the process. I just used Audacity which is free and runs on Mac, Windows, and Linux.
Phono preamp + HRT Linestreamer ADC to MacBook Pro:
It helped that this phono preamp has a variable output level control so between it and software
settings it was easy to get the levels correct without clipping.
PS Audio NuWave Phono Converter on loan:
The PS Audio NuWave Phono Converter combines the phono preamp with the ADC. These originally
sold for $2000 when first released. They dropped the price to $999 just before it was discontinued.
This unit could do hi-res PCM and DSD while the $300 HRT Linestreamer+ went up 24-bit 96-KHz
which I found to be more than sufficient. Interestingly a couple other 'high-end' companies came out
with ADC products for digitizing vinyl including Ayre. These were short lived products as audiophiles
can be a fickle bunch and interest waned. You can still find used PS Audio NuWave Phono Converters
for around $1000+
Audacity software on the Mac:
Edits: 03/05/22
I have to say that so far, after only ripping about 25 LPs to DSD, they sound sweeter than the QOBUZ versions.
Zero harshness,vocals sound smoother. Bass is there but not as tight as the digital versions though.
I'd rather have the smoothness, so I will keep ripping...
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
"I _wanted_ the PCM to sound better, but it is not quite as good as the DSD.""So my question: Could it be headroom?"
It -could be- a headroom issue but I can't be certain. I enable Headroom Adjustment and Volume Leveling in my player which automatically adjusts each track and avoids clipping. I can see the clipping indicator light up on some tracks when the Headroom Adjustment and Volume Leveling are disabled. I enable these when I sometimes use parametric EQ. Not all players have these features.
Personally I prefer PCM most of the time as DSD often sounds artificially smooth as though any and all 'edge' [even intentional by the artist] has been polished smooth analogous to a shard of glass being smoothed by the ocean.
As an aside, I've heard several DSD rips by an Inmate here in the Asylum. The recording level was so low [perhaps to avoid peak clipping?] that every track was dynamically dead. I had to crank my Volume up WAY beyond normal to hear his music at comparable levels to everything else I owned or stream. If this is DIY DSD I certain don't want it! I think he simply didn't know what he was doing.
Example signal path with Volume Leveling, Headroom Adjustment and EQ:
Edits: 03/02/22
With most DAC chips, full scale is 6 dB lower when converting DSD than when converting PCM. That's why you have a volume control.
And even though the loudness wars have abated, most CDs are still mastered to the limit and over with some peak clipping. Nobody in their right mind pushes the level like that when recording.
If the rips are coming from good quality vinyl, they probably have more dynamic range than your references, not less. You have to equalize the average volume levels of the tracks using an SPL meter to make valid DSD vs. PCM comparisons.
Having to turn the volume up is not a bad thing.
> Personally I prefer PCM most of the time as DSD often sounds artificially smooth as though any and all 'edge'
> [even intentional by the artist] has been polished smooth analogous to a shard of glass being smoothed by the ocean.
I used to think my Alesis Masterlink made perfect recordings of vinyl in 24/96 PCM, but the first vinyl recording I made with my TASCAM DA-3000 in DSD128 sounded even more perfect to me.
I don't understand your rationale in comparing incorrectly made low-level DSD recordings to correctly made PCM recordings. However, all of my DSD128 recordings of vinyl sound absolutely stunning to my ears. Perhaps you should buy a TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder and make your own DSD recordings. The TASCAM has an input volume control so you can set its recording level correctly. Furthermore, its price is quite reasonable at only $900.
Happy listening!
John Elison
I suppose I could buy a TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder but I can more easily convert PCM to DSD on the fly while listening using my computer. I've done it with Roon as well as HQPlayer and found that I'm not a real fan of DSD. I also have a couple purchased hi-res PCM albums along with the identical album purchased in DSD. Again I prefer the PCM version.Just a personal preference I suppose. I still feel that DSD is a bit artificially 'smooth'. Some prefer DSD and that's fine.
Edits: 03/04/22
The DA-3000 analogue input (feeding a PCM4202) is not particularly neutral and sounds rather shut in - It's competent but not as good as alternatives including the aging Benchmark ADC1USB (ADC used is AK5394) which is more neutral IMO. I preferred to use the Benchmark as the ADC and fed the data to my DA-3000 via AES/EBU link before the DA-3000 started to have issues in writing to the memory card and the headphone amplifier packed up.
I have subsequently moved on to using the RME ADI-2 Pro FS R (ADC is AK5574) which is vastly superior to the DA-3000.
A cheaper and better alternative (IMO) to the DA-3000 is the Korg DS-DAC-10R which I also have and would be happy to use if I didn't have the RME. It uses the same PCM4202 ADC device as the DA-3000 but also does digital EQ for phono and they provide several alternative curves for vintage EQ (Columbia, Decca, NAB). Since the phono preamp is removed from the chain, one has an even more direct means to encode vinyl sources to DSD or PCM.
Putting that to one side, the PCM4202 is based on a 1 bit D-S modulator. Whether you select PCM or DSD the sampling method is identical - selecting PCM puts the data through the additional decimation module to provide the required word length and sample rate selected. If you choose a sampling rate related to a 44.1kHz base clock, then shuttling between PCM and DSD is a straightforward mathematical translation and nothing should be lost in the process. IMO the only reason to encode in DSD is if one likes the sound decoded directly in the format rather than there being any technical advantage in the coding phase:
Lipschitz has done an analysis to show that 1 bit ADCs are fundamentally flawed due to the inability to add optimal dither. The PCM4220 may well be a better ADC as that is based on a 6 bit D-S modulator (a 3 level or 4 level modulator is sufficient for optimal dither). Although the PCM4220 doesn't offer DSD encoding, that can be done with various software options.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
I liked the sound of the Korg dac I had, but I coould not put up with the fact it required windoze drivers. I had blue screens until I gave up on the Korg and it's drivers (admittedly I run an overclocked liquid-cooled machine). I sent that Dac to the landfill...
That experience convinced me I did not want to do the digitizing using anything that required windoze and drivers.
Especially since Win-11 is around the corner and many (all?) Win-10 drivers will likely be DOA in Win-11
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
One possible reason might be due to the USB controller - Korg is using USB2 and they didn't guarantee that the device would work on USB3. Going back about 10 years ago, there was certainly backwards compatibility issues with USB2 devices in early USB3 controllers when USB3 was "new" despite the requirement to be fully backwards compatible. That seems to have been ironed out in recent years. The Korg works fine on all my new laptop devices with USB 3 type A ports and OTG ports, but I did have problems with some USB3 hubs and early USB3 PCI cards and some early USB3 portable HDDs also not being recognised in those same cards.
As I said last time, I've had ZERO problems with the DS-DAC-10R/Audiogate on multiple generic Chinese 2 in1 Win10 machines and it is running fine on a Teclast 2in1 device (via Type A USB3 connection) I bought off Aliexpress which is now running Win11 and your experience should not frighten off others; as long they are using a typical OTS laptop or standard desktop without unusual legacy expansion cards, then everything runs fine on USB3. Any legacy device with USB 2 ports should be fine.
From what I have read, MS no longer test the new builds on real hardware - they use virtual machines with "standard" hardware configurations before releasing builds to the Insider Program. They rely on those on the Windows Insider Program to inform them of specific bugs - like the file corruption issues in storage spaces reported in early distributions of new releases like version 2004 (May 2020).
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
One thing it is safe to say:
If your ADC device and processing does not require use of Windoze OS , a USB port, a Windoze driver, and a Windoze application, in order to perform your analogue to digital rips, there can be no USB, Windoze Driver, or Windoze App incompatibilities.
Because you ain't using any of them...
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
You don't need a special USB Audio 2.0 driver unless you are wanting to record above 24/96 or insist on recording direct in DSD. You could have just stuck to 24/88.2 and used Audiogate to convert to DSD later which would obviate the need for a dedicated driver.
All devices should work under the standard OS drivers without needing anything additional. You might consider Asio4ALL if you wanted to ensure bit-perfect transfer.
Your machine is obviously non-standard or some of your software is non-compliant or causing memory leaks so your user-experience is not likely to be experienced by others using a standard configuration which I daresay most probably are so it isn't really sensible to be complaining about Windows like we are talking about Windows 98 - back then, anything and everything would cause BSOD! I've used every version of Windows since 3.11 and know just how flaky things used to be. Windows 10 is easily the most stable version since then. Win 11 is still too new for me to comment on but the Korg software works fine.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Hi, Anthony,
I use a DA-3000 but use its S/PDIF input to record the 24/192 output from a SweetVinyl SugarCube SC-1 Plus, thereby eliminating the need for the DA-3000's ADC. The ADC/DAC in the SugarCube is quite good so I use it to listen to the LPs while I'm recording.
Tom
Sounds like you've been around the block with DSD. Thanks for the details on you gear. Somehow I'm not surprised that you like your RME ADI-2 Pro FS R ADC the most. I am very impressed with the DAC only version in my ADI-2 DAC FS.
How do you feel about the sound of vinyl? To my ears, vinyl sounds smoother than nearly all digital unless the digital recording was made directly from a vinyl record. In that case, the digital recording sounds just like vinyl to me.
Oh, well. To each his own!
Enjoy!
John Elison
"I think he simply didn't know what he was doing."
As Groucho would say: "Heey, I resemble that remark!"
And different systems can have very different gain in their amp stages so it could be the recording level is perfect for one system but low for another...
I did notice in my digitization efforts yesterday that I had some digital clipping so I have now set the output of my zen phono preamp to "low/mc" when before it was very low mc output setting. And latest digitizations approach but do not exceed -6db so I think I have that issue about right.
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
I think you're right that DSD sounds better than PCM. I now copy all vinyl to DSD128 with my TASCAM DA-3000 . And, I also have my FiiO set to resample all PCM to DSD64 before converting to analog. A good friend of mine resamples all his CD rips to DSD128 and they sound noticeably better than what my FiiO does. They don't sound as good as if they were originally recorded in DSD128, but they sound better than resampling to DSD64 as my FiiO player does.
My favorite is DSD256, though. I have 48 albums purchased online from websites like Native DSD and these albums sound awesome to me.
Incidentally, I just bought a new FiiO M11 Plus with ESS DACs about a month ago and I find myself listening to it more often than I listen to my FiiO M15. I was worried about the ESS DACs not sounding as good as AKM DACs, but I really like the sound of my new FiiO M11 Plus. For its price of $700 on Amazon, it's hard to beat. It comes with a leather case and a screen protector factory installed.
Happy listening!
John Elison
I have been drooling over that FIIO 11plus, but I can't afford it. I have a teen expecting to go to college in a few years...
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
Well, if your teen is interested in high-end audio, the FiiO M11 Plus would be an excellent digital player to take to college. ;-)
Good luck,
John Elison
Would not last 3 months at college - he'd lose it or it would be stolen.
Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Mark Twain
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