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Anyone know what the fucntion of Noise Shaper Switch is?I have just started using it with the filter 1 and I have to say it really brings vocals details to life, seems to add body to the music also, back ground much darker too musical as all get out!
I'd Googled and found a statement that when you use filter 2 which gives a bit of roundness to the presntation turn on the the digital nosie shaper and you will have all the detail and speed of Filter 1 along with the touch warmth of filter 2 the best of both worlds.
Any techical insights?PJB
Edits: 01/29/09 01/29/09Follow Ups:
after months of driving myself nuts with these filters i have settled on filter 1 with ns on this takes the sharp edge of rbcd giving a superb rounded sound
Not to mention better presence, body, detail, dead quite background, and better reverb of the hall and studio if present.
Now I have my SA-7S1 with the coax and BNC terminators installed as well as the grounding wire to the chassis. I also have finished by wall panel project to improve my room.
Now the change from NS on or off is quite sharp. With out the above being done, I liked filter 1 due to the dynamics and detail, and the NS round things off a bit, and dynamics suffered a bit, but I liked the added weight to the presentation so it made it a hard choice to chose at times but this is no longer the case.
The thing about the noise shaper is the dead quite background and for jazz it is a must, stand-up bass, piano and snare and high hats have the sound and tone of the real thing along with presence that is scary at times.
I just added the Kimber Kable KS 3035 speaker wire to the mix. Out went my MIT Oracle and I must say they present music totally different. So far the MIT is more upfront, aggressive in your face in a nice way.
The Kimber more relaxed, yet great detail, though not like the in your face MIT Oracle, better mid-bass weight for sure, less up front top end also, but with nice weight to the presentation, sound like real metal being struck. Stand up bass sounds much more real with the Kimber, same for the piano.
The plus for the MIT it takes no prisoners, it comes right at you, a bit like being on steroids, and everything is big, wide and dramatic sounding. Ultra Technicolor, a bit towards the white side of natural.
Both are very good depending on your tastes and what you trying to accomplish. I will say this for sure having heard McIntosh equipment over the many years and now owning it, the Kimber is more correct than the MIT Oracle as far as leaving the Sonics of the McIntosh in place.
My V2 and the 3035 are somewhat close in price, the 3035 about a grand or so cheaper. I don’t miss the large boxes laying around either. But I could still be happy using the MIT V2 it rocked so to speak. But I feel the Kimber is more correct of the two.
I am waiting a few weeks to make up my mind once the Kimber 3035 settles in I expect a refinement and dynamics to improve per usual.
I had the 3033 and did not like it until a day before I shipped it, it came into it’s own after 2 weeks and I was impressed, so I expect the same for the 3035, but so far Ray has made a great balanced sounding speaker wire.
Good job Ray.
PJB
I like filter 1 for CD, noise shaper and DC filter off. For SACD, filter 3 seems best. For some reason, all like the three filter selections for SACD. Just there are big diferences in the sound and 3 seems best with most discs.
Usually though, I leve it at filter 1 for both because most listening ends up being to CD's. My ratio of discs is still 20 to 1 or CD to SACD.
My opinion on these settings changed when I went form a good amplifier and full range floorstanding speakers to stand mount active monitors. Before the differences seemed smaller.
I hit play this morning on the Art Lande disc While She Sleeps. After 10 secounds, thought, this sounds like filter 2. Looked and it was, so changed to 1, listened one song, then to filter 3.
With my old system, it might have taken a couple days to catch having filter 2 selected. I have to get up close to read the display.
I always want to like position 2 the best, but the implimentation in the SA11S2 makes it my least my favorite with both types of discs.
George
I hate choice in these circumstances.
I never can tell when the difference is real or psychological!
It was the same situation with the Sony SCD-1, could never tell the REAL difference between the three filters. Let's settle down for a good compromise; good enough to enjoy music in a relaxed way.
But all those filters/switches options are ultimately what stops me from going for the Marantz. I totally realize it'll be a plus for some people, just not for me. I think it would just feed my audiophilia nervosa.
But then I'm not the kind of kind who sets his VTA record by record either.
I'm sure it's a great machine though.
JB
The switches are easy to use....if you don't want to use them then just stick with filter 1. This should not be a non-buying factor.
Like all audio all the switches do is give you some options on what each listner finds "correct". JUst like equipment we all have our own "taste" to what we find pleasing.
If you think your ever hearing the the live master tape then you are only going to be letdown.
Your equipment the sonics of the room, cables all impact the final sound that you hear at home....you try to aim for a system that you enjoy.
PJB
You misunderstand my point.
I realize it's a plus to have a choice. But the downside is that it would prompt me very soon to start trying a different filter for each record, etc...
I don't want to do that.
I also believe that the less mathematics, chips, options, etc... in the signal, the better. So what is obviously a stellar player could probably be made even better.
Once more, it's just my opinion, I completely understand fighting for the opposite.
JB
After playing around with the filters and noise-shaper when I first got my SA7 , I decided after a week or so to always leave it on filter 1 . Now I have to be reminded that there even are filters on the unit . No need to obsess about this .
Yes, but we *do* obsess don't we - that's the point! We don't *need* to, we can't help it - it's (for better or for worse) part of being an audiophile.
Cheers,
Paul.
A good case in point is Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA) on turntables, some people can set it and forget it. Unfortunately I had a SOTA Comet with adjustable VTA and it was ruining me enjoying music as I never thought VTA was correct, I guess because I never found a spot were all my LPs sounded right. I was adjusting VTA many times a day and sometimes several times during the same LP, this obsession was not helped by the fact that the thickness of LPs varies between 100 - 220 grams and not all cutting stylus cut at the same angle.
VTA is usually adjusted by loosening an allen wrench and raising the tonearm up or down by tiny increments. Very, very tedious!
My current Music Hall turntable does have adjustable VTA but I never go near it. It came pre-setup so there was nothing to adjust except dialing in the Tracking Force and the anti-skate. I can't change brands of cartridges because I will have to set the VTA and I know it will become a music ruining obsession with me.
I don't like playing with EQ for as once I start it never sounds right, and flat seems to be the best compromise and what the engineers wanted, so I love the "Music Direct" button because I only have a choice of "flat" as it takes the tone controls out of the circuit.
Filter settings would also be an obsession for me, I want to just play music without messing with adjustments or anything just wonderful music.
I know we don't need to obsess, but being that obsession is an audiophile's curse I prefer no adjustments on any of my equipment. Thus no obsession.
Give me high resolution or remain silent,
Teresa
Most likely we're an Audiophile because we obsess than it is the other way around. And in the majority of cases it's probably not the only obsession (addiction ?) that most of us have . 12 steps anyone ?
that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).'
You are a very strange person, Teresa.
Regards,
Geoff
is that some time ago someone in the home had tampered with the remote control and had switched on NS or some filters in the player.
I went literally crazy as at first I was unable to tell what was going on: the player sounded terribly hollow and eerie to my ears.
Then I noticed; switched back to filter 1 and switched off all the gimmicks. I has my -- grand -- player back.
L.
I haven't listened to the Noise Shaping settings enough to comment meaningfully, and generally leave it off. Same with the DC filter.
I have grown to enjoy (Phase Error Compensation) Filter Option 2 the most (RBCD), but I could live with any of the 3 filter settings long term. I like Filter Option 1 for SACD.
From the owners manual:
* Noise shaping is a type of digital feedback used in the
algorithms for oversampling. Digital feedback improves
the linearity of bass sounds and the noise characteristics
of the audio frequency band. However, this digital feedback
is still feedback nonetheless. Generally, in amplifiers
and other equipment, the sound quality changes
based on the amount of feedback. Low feedback is said
to result in poor audio characteristics but good sound.
Although no measurement differences are shown in the
SA-7S1, the sound quality is changed. Therefore, make
the setting according to your preferences.
Ken
I listened to all three filters and my chose would be filter 3 across the board, more vivid and presence and detail with a great body.
Filter 1 or 2 with Noise sharper on Redbook or filter 3.
Now I have just worked on my room and added proper bass and 1st and 2nd point acoustic panels.
Before working on improving my room filter 1 was used across the board.
I also did some of the tweaks to the Marantz, added the ground wire, 75 Ohm digital terminator and Coax shorting plug.
So my results might not jive with others. I will say that noise shaper bring out details and a body to the presentation that is wonderful, and most of all if a cd’s not well mastered become more enjoyable to listen to.
I just listened ro the Ella Cole Porter Song Book 2 cd set and I never enjoyed it more with filter 1 engaged as well as the N.S. Superb!! Filter 3 is close but no cigar.
I don't care what the N.S.does but it brings the musical experience more into your room that any digital player I have ever heard. I enjoy filter 1 also on some discs. Filter 2 is close to one but a little rounder sounding.
I stick with 3 instead of 2, in fact 3 sounds great with SACD CD's. I listening to one right now as I write this and I must say a very enjoyable setting.
This learning experience and staying open minded has paid big dividends. Again like they say try it, stay open minded and use your own ears.
PJB
Well Dr. Phil, I'm just going to load some reference discs and listen to that noise shaper thingy now.
Ken
Look forward to your comments. Vol must be turned up a bit once it is turned on.
PJB
I spent some time last night and today listening to a few CDs and SACDs using Filter setting 1 as a constant, and experimenting with the Noise Shaper filter.For certain recordings, I'm experiencing some of what Dr. Phil describes above. It seems there is a tightening, or dare I say thinning, in the lower to lower mid bass region which allows the vocals, bass drums, and bowed string instruments in particular to step forward more in the overall presentation when NS is on. This seems to benefit discs that might be a little more warm, perhaps tending towards muddy or congested bass and midrange, or maybe rich in bass content - I'm thinking Daniel Lanois (Here Is What Is) produced discs as a good example. I also like the effect its having on my Andrew Bird CDs with it's widespread use of strings (violins and acoustic guitars) and subdued, breathy sounding vocal he uses. It adds a little sparkle in the upper midrange. And Dr. Phil is right, at louder volumes this seems to help these kind of recordings sound a good deal better.
On the other hand recordings that sound a little thin in the bass registers do not benefit from this setting. A good example are several Bob Dylan older SACDs. I still prefer to hear the older ones up until Nashville Skyline or so with the NS turned off. This is far more subtle however, in other words, the NS does not affect these recordings that much - or perhaps I'm even imagining it - I think they sound subtly better with the NS turned off. The Lanois produced ones, such as "Oh Mercy" perhaps sounding better with the NS turned on - less compelling than on Lanois' releases under his own name.
All of this is subject to a lot more experimentation and combination with the other 2 filter settings for each format, compressed recordings vs uncompressed etc. My general approach about these settings is to figure out what combo will benefit the majority of my collection, and leave it that way unless I'm critically listening. In any case, the NS filter seems useful to me, and I appreciate the tip :)
Edits: 02/01/09 02/01/09
After a couple years with my SA 11S1 I finally am playing with the filters ( I used filter 1 exclusively). My take on the noise shaper is that it seems to add a little thickness to the sound - maybe like tubes do? Problem is as the volume is increased above 80db or so this body turns somewhat edgy, IMO. I've turned it back off.
Seems filter 1 for SA11-S1 and SA11-S2/SA7-S1 are different.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hirez&m=239932
----------------------------------
Marantz SA-7S1 -> Pathos Logos -> Martin Logan Vantage
From what I understand the new PEC filter implemented in the SA-11S2 and SA-7S1 was intended to improve RBCD performance.
If you read between the descriptions for the 3 SACD filters for all 3 models, the goals and characteristics for each filter setting are virtually the same - albeit worded slightly differently.
Ken
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