 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
123.3.221.56
In general terms, as an owner of both, I would recommend the Sennheiser is a better fit for most people. Yes, the Focals are slightly better and more revealing BUT this will only be apparent in an optimised system. Here are my reasons -
1. The Focals are NOT twice as good as the price difference might suggest.
2. The Sennies weigh less and are more comfortable.
3. The Sennies have a 2 year guarantee while the Focals have only one. This is more important than you might first think as I've never had to have Sennies repaired but currently have my Focals in for repair at a (most likely high) cost, yet to be determined.
4. The Sennies do have a superior soundstage and are delight to listen to (mostly classical in my case) music.
My advice would be that the extra dollars required for the Focals over the Sennies would yield better results if spent elsewhere, in particular on the DAC.
Getting to where I am now has been a long, long and often wasteful road. I cut my teeth on the first audio delight with headphones listening to AM radio on a constructed crystal set back in the 1950's. Yes, this audio idiot is pretty old at 82 next month!!! And I've trodden the vinyl path with fancy Linn Sondel tables, Koetsu cartridges etc etc and initially hated CDs. And that dislike was well founded as the conversion from digital to analog was pretty bad in those days with jitter fouling up the audio.
But technology has moved on so I sold my vinyl collection, then a few years later sold the CD collection and moved on to the expensive Meridian Sooloos server system. Even that is now abandoned in favour of Roon so the headphone setup now is:
Music files (around 16,000) on a 6TB HDD in this drive, processed by Roon, hardwired by a LAN connection to an Aurilac Aries streaming bridge -> AES balanced digital out via Canare DA206 115 ohm cabling -> Schiit Yggdrasil DAC -> bal;anced analog audio -> Auralic Tausus MkII amp -> balanced headphone.
A footnote to the above is that it is only recently I woke up to the importance of the quality of the digital cable thanks to responses to queries on the digital board on AA. If not chosen with care it can be responsible for nasty jitter which can make a mockery of the best DAC etc.
So I've actually come full circle, starting off his cheap headphones on a crystal set, ending up with a nice music system still listening on headphones!!! And I'm not expecting sympathy about having to use the Sennies while the Focals are being repaired because none would be appropriate. The AQ is currently VERY nice thank you!
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
Follow Ups:
.
Thanks for this. I am just about to buy a pair of 800S and your remarks are very encouraging. Both the Focal Elear and Utopia were under consideration ( with Beyer Dynamic Amiron Home and Mr. Speakers Ether Flow - quite a wide range of price points). However I heard 2 pairs of Elears and 3 Utopias , each with different driving equipment. I didn't really enjoy any of the setups but one or two were certainly more encouraging than the others. Your caveat about an optimised system definitely must apply.
There is a difficulty in buying expensive headphones as largely one is buying in the dark. That is few dealers carry more than one or two headphone brands so the chances of being able to compare or to borrow the cans to hear in your own circumstances are very limited. The only opportunity most of us have of hearing the headphones at all is at audio shows but then the driving equipment may be in question. With the cost of high end 'phones these days it really isn't acceptable. I am not prepared to spend over 500 gbp, let alone 4K, on anything just on spec.
I am particularly interested in your point 4. as I too am predominantly a classical music listener and the one thing I do not like about my current main headphones (Sennheiser HD600) is the comparatively narrow soundstage that they make even using a quite sophisticated crossfeed processor. I guess that poor sounstaging is an inherent limitation with the great majority of headphones so I am not particularly in favour of this way of listening compared to good and well set up loudspeakers. However I am an apartment dweller so any late night listening has to be on cans.
I will add one other point in favour of upmarket Sennheisers. Spare parts are available for decades. My HD 600s are now around 25 years old yet the year before last I was able to replace earpads and headband pad. This year I changed the cable to the balanced one intended for the HD 650 (a common fit for both headphones) and found a marked improvement with balanced operation. Apparently the HD 800S' also benefit from this mode.
Thank you too for the brief resume of your lengthy history in Audio and congratulations on your forthcoming 82nd birthday. I have a few years left to get there myself but fingers crossed.
Thank you for your comments and good wishes.
A PS to my post.
Look around for a used 800S. Here they are available, virtually new, at 70% new price. I have a used one and it is perfect. I feel they come on sale because they are found to be too revealing of input problems so less expensive phones that mask those deficiencies are preferred.
You are dead right about the difficulty of choosing phones at this level. Not only are there biases in reports, thery are all in different systems and synergy can affect AQ, particularly as I said before, the DAC and even the cable linked to it. We all have different brains with reactions governed by genetics and environmental influences but if a lot of people rave over a unit, and they have for both the4 800S and Utopias, then the odds are very much in favour of them being fine.
Good luck & do post back about how you end up.
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
The main complaint was a lack of base/ tilted up frequency response.
After awhile this resolved and the phones are excellent.
Also an aftermarket cord and plugs does make them even better.
I acquired a small makers aftermarket set just by chance. No question the phones are better with an upgrade cord set.
And I found that not all HD800's sound the same. Some time ago I had two of them and one most definitely sounded better than the other.But I do find the HD800S is smoother and (yes I'm an idiot) now have two. I bought the second one, used, because it looks like it might be a long time before the Focal Utopias are repaired.
Theoretically, one set of headphones should be enough but the Sennheiser plugs attached to the headphones are not easy to pull in and out so I figured it was best to leave them alone as much as possible. So, currently one of the HD800S headphones remains attached to the main listening station, currently using the supplied balanced cord although I have an aftermarket one on its way here. The other HD800S is used for portables (Pioneer 30R), again in balanced form but with a 4 pole 2.5mm plug. The AQ from both sources (listening station and portables) is superb so I'll be fascinated to see how much difference I note when the Focals are back in place again.
Bottom line is I'm having doubts about the wisdom of buying the Focals in the first place. But then, how often are we wise in this pursuit of audio Nirvana?
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
Edits: 09/01/17
about these cans to wait until I find either a demo or new HD-800 at a substantually reduced price and then do the 'HD-800 mods' whatever those might be.
Didn't really follow up because at the time the HD-800 was selling way north of $1000 and buying kilo-buck headphone for the purpose of hacking it just doesn't have the appeal it might have at some point in my DIY past.
However...
If I already owned a pair and was somewhat dissatisfied with the sound, it might be an interesting experiment.
It is interesting how our concept of value has changed with emphasis for some of us now on headphones rather than amp/speaker systems.
I pose the question as to how great is the fidelity of any $1000 speaker system compared to a $1000 headphone?
We have shrunk our concept of "expensive" with headphone systems and we now (and yes, that does include me) balk at items with 4 figure price tags. The bottom line is that one can assemble a superb sounding headphone system for under $6,000, particularly with wise selection of used items. I doubt if a similar amp and speaker system for under $6000 would even approach the fidelity of a headphone one.
But of course we all have to consider the budget and so strive for the best value for the outlay so the ultimate decision must be related to one's personal situation. And, in all things audio, exponential price increases do not correlate with increases in AQ, and cruelly, just because something costs more is no guarantee it will sound better. Decisions about what to choose are never easy but, as commented elsewhere, are even harder with headphones because of the inability to trial items before purchase. It is a bit of a lottery, but happily we often win :-)
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
" we all have different brains with reactions governed by genetics and environmental influences ".
Not only this but with particular relevance to headphone listening we all have a unique Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF). Given the proximity of the driver to the pinnae and ear canal the assumption that a flat response is correct as in a louspeaker turns out to be incorrect. For nearly everyone a "flat" headphone will sound unbalanced. There is a lot of research work on this ( e.g. by Harmon Kardon) but even so there doesn't yet seem to be a universally agreed target curve.
In fact there is a lot of work going on ( with at least one product already on the market) regarding headphones that will first analyse the individual's HRTF then apply the correct response curve using DSP. This requires another technique which will be seen increasingly, that the headphone itself will contain the DAC and amplifier.
I will certainly report back although as the 800S is apparently a " special" product in the Sennheiser range I am expecting a bit of a delay on delivery. NB , thanks for your advice but don't worry I have the price sorted:-).
I would love to hear more on your experience with Roon and classical music (obviously on another forum). I have had it under consideration since day 1 but feel let down by their launch "puff" on classical music which was it turns out clearly just that, a " puff" ( I won't go into it much further but Roon made it look as if they were to have knowledgeable discographers preparing the metadata whereas it is actually obtained from a third party which may be worse than what I have already - at least I am offered more than one source to compare) .
I have also kept looking at the Roon community metadata thread from time to time and still see far too many reports of wrong identifications for classical. Still I would be happy for you to persuade me that I am mistaken.
On a whim I recently bought a pair of Koss ESP/950 electrostatic headphones and I'm pleasantly surprised at their excellent performance and relatively low price. They sell for less than $700 online and they sound like a thousand dollars or more to me. I'm sure the headphones you're considering are just as good if not better, but the price attracted me to Koss and I'm not disappointed in the least. They are definitely better sounding than my old Grado HP-1 and RS-2 headphones.
Best regards,
John Elison
Thanks John but unfortunately they are not available in my country.
Although they have 2 nominated distributors here in the UK, in reality neither of them appears to actually carry any of the Koss products.
However I am pleased that you are enjoying your purchase.
Maybe not. :-(
I don't think it's the HD-800 but I haven't spent a lot of time with the HD-800 S.
The HD-650 might have been an upgrade but the HD-800 to my ears was NOT.
Maybe better overall but quite different, tipped up, etc.
What I did (and likely should not have) was buy a headphone on MassDrop. The Kennerton Vali is a 'Made in USSR' headphone that was offered on MassDrop for about $800 some months back.
Review below.
They are certainly worth the $$ as they better the HD-800 for less $$, at least to my ears. But they are HEAVY and also clamp the head like a vise (can be 'adjusted' with care as the metal band is bendable).
I have not been tempted to return to my much-loved HD-600 (near to 20 years old) but still something is missing which I can't quite put my finger on. They are not 'everything you liked about the HD-600 only better' which is what I am looking for and not finding yet.
Headphone are HARD. I listen about 3-4 hours a day with about the best setup for headphone as I can find (Audio-GD Master 11 DAC/Headphone Amp), at least for my taste.
To sum up, there are MANY $1000 and up headphones that better the HD-600 in one way or the other, but there are very few headphones at any price that have so few flaws; flaws that make you take the darn things off.
Maybe the HiFiMan HE-1000 Ver 2 at $3000?
Not able to go there....
Yet.
I too hated the HD 800. That treble just sounded completely unnatural to me. However my time with the 800 S has been different experience. I still have a dislike though of buying anything expensive without hearing it in my own system first. In the case of headphones that seems virtually impossible to arrange. I will now delay pressing the " buy" button and will schlep up to Hammersmith in three weeks to get another listen to them at the next audio show in London. Still not ideal but it's the best I can do.
I will also look out for the Kennertons. They will probably be on show as the event's organisers are retailers who stock them. But not the Valis. They only carry the Odins for which one needs 1900 of those little gold and silver coins carrying a portrait of Her Majesty. Probably outside of what I am prepared to pay at the moment. Also the comfort factor may rule them out (the 800/S beat even the 600s in this respect).
So it does indeed comes down to whether or not to retain the HD 600s as my main cans. I like them even more since I started driving them in balanced mode. I had a great time with them two days ago listening to the Prom devoted to classical music from the Indian subcontinent that went on until 01:00 am. Nevertheless they still have that narrow soundstage which I am hopeful of bettering. Fingers crossed.
I agree!
Wow, it has been 17 years I got my HD600's. Recently replaced the ear pads and headband pads. I always listen to some of the new cans at RMAF so far don't plan on replacing the good old HD600's.
WHen I acquired my HD800 I too noted the tipped up treble and some lack of bass.
It took a long time for them to break in. But when they did the tipped up treble was gone, good bass.
I am very happy with my phones.
please let us know your thought after a few days/weeks of listening.
Especially compared to the HD-600.
I;ve found that the 'WOW!' factor when you first put on an unfamiliar set of cans may quickly turn to 'WHOA!' factor after an hour or so of listening.
I'm surprised at the negative comments about the HD800 as, although not as smooth as the 800S, they sounded very good to me.Forgive me, but I must hark back to a mantra I keep beating like a drum. Money spent on hi-end headphones might only reveal flaws about the input so will sound unacceptable. In particular I feel the DAC is critical, and have been surprised to learn this year that digital cable quality is also vital as it can be responsible for jitter. I hope to have avoided that by recabling (for balanced mode) with Canare DA206.
And I'm using an Auralic Aries streaming bridge between the Roon systyem and the YGGDRASIL DAC as it is reputed to have excellent jitter control.
As for the earlier query about Roon, no it is far from perfect but is generally better than the Meridian Sooloos system I came from. In many ways is is not as user friendly as the Sooloos system and is fundamentally no better at handling classical music meta data - they are all bad in that respect as they were set up for popular, not classical music so we get stupidites like showing Beethoven as the artist performing a work! If only.
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
Edits: 08/27/17
with the HD-800 (un-modded). I use a balanced cable with my HD-600 and the Aduio-GD Master 11 is a pretty good balanced DAC/Headphone amp. Compares favorably to Schiit's best DAC/Headphone amp, at least in my view, albeit with very little time I was able to spend with it.
I usually take a couple sets of headphones when I attend shows for just that reason.
Also got to spend some time with the top-of-the-line SCHITT stack at RMAF last year listening with the new HiFiMan HE-1000 Ver. 2. That's a setup I could live with, I think.
My current system is the uRendu, powered by an LPS-1 Ultra-Cap PS with Canare Quad-Star DC cable, directly plugged into the USB port of my DAC (no cord, just the UpTone USPCB A> B Adapter which lets you switch off the 5V line).
Beats the laptop-USB set up I had before by a bit, even when adding the Regen into the mix.
At 82 next month my hearing is not great for the high frequencies so I never found the HD800 unbearable as some have. That said, I do find the 800S smoother.
The problem with a lot of headphone comparison is just how trustworthy is auditory memory? It takes time to change headphones and the physical act can be distracting.
I often feel that "Different" is interpreted as "Better" and many audio addicts change headphones & other components because they get bored with the current sound, regardless of how good it is. The result is great for retailers but leaves the audiophile moving sideways rather than forward. And I've been guilty of that many, many times.
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
Too bad one can't demo headphones for a month or two before purchase.
And that touches on another weird aspect of this "hobby".
One can become"acclimatised" to a certain sound so that it becomes the preferred option. This can display itself with music where a particular way a musical work or song is heard so repeatedly then anything different is disliked.
Note this is not a criticism. If someone likes what he/she is hearing either the music, headphones or whatever, then end of story. Enjoyment of the music is the purpose so if personal satisfaction is found via a certain path, then that is all that really matters.
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our individual tastes, says he enjoying many thousand albums on a Roon music Server.
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
