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This topic has come up here before. I'm linking a recent article that provides an update of sorts for those who are interested.
Follow Ups:
IF we were comparing old unmodified violins to new ones that would be interesting, and we can all hear the difference.Because, there are heaps of recordings and performing groups which are HIP.
I would be willing to bet that most responders to this thread, and its OP, are unaware of the point I'm making.
Most of the great 17-18C violins have been modified with a longer and higher fingerboard, a higher bridge & a stronger bass-bar under it, and much higher string tension, and they are played with a 19-20C bow.
All these changes were made for larger venues. To compete with violins made with these newer structures OEM.
Many of the violins so modified did not respond well to the mods.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 10/16/17
nt
:-)!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
There really is no such thing an old violin. Throughout the years, they have been repaired...parts were replaced....necks elongated, et al.
Hmmmm.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Some of the old violins have been maintained, But most have been modified.
The latter ones sound different and many don't sound very good at all, thanks to the modifications, to which they were not suited.
Stainers are the best example of the ruined type.
These were made on the other side of the Alps and were sensibly treasured. E.g. by JS Bach and his family, and by the Mozarts.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Yes, good point, and I did know that; instruments were simply different a couple hundred years ago. It would be interesting to compare a violin as it was in the 1800s to one by the same maker now.
Edits: 10/16/17
Last night, we were walking up North Charles Street, a major north-south artery through Baltimore, and passed the studio for Perrin Violins. This caused us to wonder: how many luthiers are there in the US who hand-make violins? Does anybody know?
TIA, and I hope I'm not hijacking the thread.
Happy listening,
Jim
"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno
A quick search revealed that there may be a lot!
The Violin Society of American held their annual convention in Indy during the 2014 International Violin Competition of Indianapolis - there were many booths and displays from luthiers from all over the world. There was even a competition for new violins (concertmaster of the ISO was one of the judges). During the competition finals, I found myself sitting between two luthiers - it was fascinating to get their takes on the competitors.
I read "American Luthier" by Quincy Whitney. It is the story Carleen Maley Hutchins, who died in in 2009 at the ago of 98.
Quoting from the dust jacket notes, "In answer to a challenge from composer Henry Brant, she built the first violin octet-a family of eight violins ranging in size from an eleven inch treble to a seven foot contrabass, in registers spanning the piano keyboard. She wrote more than 100 technical papers-including to benchmark Scientific American cover articles-founded an international society devoted to violin acoustics, and became the only American to be honored in Cremona, Italy, the birthplace of Stradivari."
I was fascinating, even for someone such as myself, with little knowledge of the subject.
It really is how one values the violin. If sound is the criteria, then one has to take into account the various aspect of that sound....volume (good for reaching the far corners of the concert hall - but not good if you are part of the 2nd violins in the orchestra - tone - is the tone similar from the low G string to the highest position on the E string....also, how identical is the same note on each string .....or is the violin a work of art from hundreds of years ago. Another aspect is its history - who played it..with which orchestra, etc. To my ears, the best violin for me is the Guarneri del Gesus played by Rachel Barton Pines. Mine is a copy of that, is a much lesser instrument, but I know the faults and work around them. I find this whole subject very interesting.
There is a somewhat older recording comparing 15 Stradivarius violins to 15 Guarneri violins. I've listened to it and find it very intriguing. I think my own preference lies with the Guarneri violins.And I've attached a link to a youtube video with a similar comparison.
Edits: 10/16/17
I also prefer the Guarneri. Heifetz did as well for most of his playing.
Read my post above.
It is all much more complex than you can imagine.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Very nice post! My two sons play violin and I was learning with them until I was paralyzed in an accident. I too became fascinated with the tone of different violins and ended exploring that quite a bit. Some of the best discoveries I made was with strings and rosin. Have you tried the Warchal brand of violin strings yet? I have found them to be fabulous and superior to any other strings I've tried. They are a bit too bright for the first week of play and then seem to last almost forever. They only recommend two different brands of rosin, and we use one of them with fantastic results. (see link below).
I was fascinated to hear Hillary Hahn play live at the excellent local concert hall. While she is a superb violinist, I didn't think the tone of her Villaume was even as good as the 100-year old Boston area instruments I had bought for my sons - at less than 1/20th of the price of hers (which is relatively "cheap" for a "big name" violinist).
Now you have me very curious about the "Guarneri del Gesus played by Rachel Barton Pines". Are there any recordings that you would kindly recommend? Thanks in advance!
It is very difficult to recommend a string for any violin....there are so many variables in play. I know Warchal very well, but for MY instrument, it just doesn't work. I know a number of pro's that like it. My instrument likes Peter Infield stings..and when I play Bach I like the sound/feel/texture of Eudoxa....although they require constant tuning (at my concerts, people actually prefer the tuning reprise). Each instrument has its own personality, and different strings bring out the mood/temperament/joviality/melancholy/color/etc. of the instrument. Depending on the pressure/speed of the bow/temp of room/humidity/etc. the rosin may contribute positively or not .... I like Andrea...but that's me. On another thought. Anna Akiko Meyers has changed to a del Gesus on her last recordings. Her Bach Album "Air" is played with her former violin. Perhaps you can hear a difference between the 2 violins....with the same performer playing the different instruments. I recommend all her efforts...she's a wonderful violinist (and a wonderful lady) She teaches at Julliard.... To really hear the differences between instruments you have to hear it in person....
Thanks for the info. Makes sense to me. The string thing is funny, as they must subsidize the fractional sized strings to make it affordable for the parents - going from the 3/4 size string to a 3" longer 4/4 string will literally double the cost. With the dollar so strong, top quality 4/4 string sets were costing $100 a pop - too much to replace every few months, which is all I was getting from some of the other brands. Worse than a tube-eating amplifier!
The Warchals have worked well for us on an extremely "picky" fiddle, and while overly bright for the first couple of weeks (when only played an hour a day), once settled in they sound amazing even 18 months later (of relatively light use).
Hearing a high-quality, well-played live violin in the house every day for over a decade sure helped to calibrate my ears.
I agree, and have posted this before. Violins can sound quite good on a good system, but I think a live violin is a different animal. This may be true for many instruments, but I've noticed it, ini particular, with solo violin.
What I can't see can't hurt me.
It's about 12 years ago I was astounded at the sonic quality of a DVD of a Union Station live performance played through economy electronics and speakers compared to nearly any LP played over my then $100,000 system.
Just last night I "attended" one of the most glorious readings of the Mahler Resurrection Symphony I've ever experienced courtesy of Youtube, a Class T amp, and Parts Express B-652 Air speakers, in my living room.
The visual dimension of music making is an essential part of hearing, far more than any multi-speaker, algorithmic thing-a-ma-bob one can invent.
View YouTube Video
Kinda like an nice, old pair of jeans --- some instruments just feel right. They seem to respond to your inputs better than others. I don't know how to play a violin --- however, some old Gibson or Martin guitars (1930s, not 1600s Strads) just feel & sound so good.
But, I digress...
8^)
Nice post! Have you seen some of the videos about Willie Nelson's guitar, "Trigger"? I'll link to one good one below. There are others out there, showing the annual repairs that are done to keep it going. Willie has literally worn a hole through the top, as there was no pick-guard. Quite a story there.
Funny, but I never really read about this particular guitar. And I thought I'd read just about every special guitar's history.But, the "feel" is something you know immediately. Feel and tone. Some ppl say it's like "beauty" --- in general. Immediate recognition. But, often difficult to accurately describe.
Anyhow, there was this 1930s era Gibson 00-sized guitar. Almost as beaten-up as Willie's Martin. The feel and tone! Sustain was so good, you could almost make that thing sound like a violin, using light vibrato. I'd love to find that guitar. My Martin HD-28 is very good (prolly better than me) --- but that Gibson...
I digress, again...
8^)
Edits: 10/16/17
Isn't it weird? Not only how great that particular guitar sounds - and clearly the player is competent but no amazing "guitar hero", so the player is not the "secret" - but also how you can hear the great tone qualities of that instrument on a stinky YouTube video at 126 (not 128) kb/s through a pair of 1" speakers on my laptop with the built-in shitty DAC and amplifiers. Crazy stuff - and lots to learn about how to reproduce high quality sound...
During his mental decline this instrument ended up shattered in pieces. All A list players here but innovating like Jaco, Jimi, or whoever, you end up conceding its in the fingers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp1L-Vw0Ems
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