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In Reply to: RE: A list of sonic properties "un-measurable" (or, not easily measured)? posted by genungo on July 28, 2014 at 20:15:20
The human ear/brain system is very sensitive to higher ordered harmonics (5th and above), particularly the odd orders.
If these harmonics appear as the result of distortion of the signal, the result to the human ear will be that the signal will sound louder than it really is because the ear/brain system uses the higher orders to calculate how loud a sound is.
Add to that the fact that the ear/brain system is tuned to be the most sensitive at birdsong frequencies and the result is that trace amounts of odd ordered harmonic distortion can be very difficult to measure, but can be heard as a brightness/hardness in the resulting reproduction, because the ear/brain system translates distortion into tonality.
It is this reason that a 2nd order harmonic is interpreted as lushness or warmth.
Imaging is a different matter but is a function of bandwidth and resulting phase linearity. We can't hear phase of individual tones, but we can make out phasing information over a band of frequencies, if that phasing information is part of the soundstage in a recording.
These facts were not well understood 45-50 years ago, and there are still some who dispute them today although the ear's sensitivity to odd ordered harmonics is well known and easily proven with very simple equipment.
Now the use of Global Negative Feedback in an amplifier or preamplifier design imposes issues that relate directly to the above comments. There is a certain amount of time that it takes for a signal to propagate through any audio circuit. Not surprisingly, this time is known as Propagation Delay. The fact of Propagation Delay causes timing errors when GNF is used: the higher the frequency, the later and less useful the feedback becomes. In fact one has to be careful of GNF in wide bandwith circuits, as its use can lead to oscillation as the phase of the feedback signal can be so altered relative to the input (due to propagation delay) that it is actually positive rather than negative feedback.
So how this plays out is that a high frequency event that travels through the circuit is then applied back to the input, out of phase with original signal, as a correction voltage. But because it is arriving slightly later than it really should, the input signal has changed so the correction voltage is not correcting what it should. This results in trace amounts of odd ordered harmonic distortion, which can go up as high as the 81st harmonic(!). In addition, IM can be added as well due to intermodulations at the feedback node. This has been known for some time; Norman Crowhurst wrote about this phenomena over 50 years ago.
It is for this reason that some designers have eschewed the use of GNF in their designs. The idea is that while greater overall distortion is the result, most of it is less objectionable and less audible to the human ear, while the types that are more audible (higher orders) are not present at all.
Of course the ear translates to the lower orders to tonality as mentioned earlier, the trick here is to use all the techniques known to keep such distortions to a minimum. And example might be to use differential circuits to eliminate the even ordered harmonics through cancellation.
Distortion can mask detail so it is important to keep it down. So a low distortion circuit should also be smoother and more revealing to the ear as the harmonics that irritate the ear are not present- this allows the music to presented in a more intact state.
Follow Ups:
I don't quite agree with you about the odd harmonics.
Based on the research I have been doing it seems more that a monotonic pattern of alternating even and odd harmonics gives a closer to nature presentation to the sound.
As an example at a given level, let's say at 1 watt you get -50db 2nd harmonic then you should have something like -70db 3rd and then -90 db 4th and then -110 db 5th. If your amp makes this pattern at all frequencies (Distortion at different frequencies should always be the same pattern) then it will likely sound really good. It is also nearly impossible to achieve this pattern with negative feedback.
Also, as Cheever notes the actual pattern that is correct is SPL dependent, because what is correct to the brain is also changing with SPL.
This means that the sensitivity of the speaker will also affect the result because the pattern generated by most amps is dependent on output power.
This then speaks highly for speakers that will get loud with little power because many amps will have a better harmonic pattern at lower powers.
Of course you are right that amps with predominantly odd order harmonics (a rather damning indictment of push/pull amps IMO) are really barking up the wrong tree and the harmonic pattern is nowhere close to what the ear/brain expects. But so too would be an amp that somehow makes only even order harmonics...particularly if they don't fall away exponentially.
Another crime you often see with amps is the "picket fence" harmonic pattern where harmonics go out basically to infinity with little to no drop in level with higher order. This is almost guaranteed to mess up the highs and shorten soundstage and veil low level resolution.
Since the ear does use the higher ordered harmonics to calculate sound pressure, the main thing is to not generate distortion such that the higher orders are present.
This leads to a more relaxed sound; IMO/IME the better systems out there will have no sense of sounding loud even when they are. IOW they will have an effortless quality at any volume.
Push-pull isn't the problem- excess generation of odd orders is. However I do agree that many or most push pull amplifiers do have problems in this area.
I also agree that speakers that are easier to drive (and IMO, higher impedance as well) are quite a boon as it then becomes possible to have some serious sound pressure without a lot of amplifier power. Some amplifiers (zero feedback in particular) are best run such that the output power probably does no exceed 20-25% of full power. This helps keep the distortion down, often to the point of inaudible and unmeasurable.
"I also agree that speakers that are easier to drive (and IMO, higher impedance as well) are quite a boon as it then becomes possible to have some serious sound pressure without a lot of amplifier power. Some amplifiers (zero feedback in particular) are best run such that the output power probably does no exceed 20-25% of full power. This helps keep the distortion down, often to the point of inaudible and unmeasurable. "
Now that's what I'm talking about!
A SE amp with a very linear driver tube and a very linear output tube operated in the most linear way possible to the point that the first 20-25% (as you say) of the operation is so linear that there in almost no mechanism for producing harmonic distortion.
The increase in current (decrease in voltage) half of the operation, of both the driver stage and the output stage, is the same shape as the input and the same size as the decrease in current (increase in voltage) half.
There is almost total symmetry, thus no distortion and all without the need for GNF.
As you already know, to me that's the big advantage of Class A done right.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Sounds good! As long as you can find (or afford) loudspeakers that are both accurate and efficient enough, you're all set.
Edits: 07/30/14
There are, sadly, few drivers out there that meet all these criteria. Linked below is one of them -- a 6.5" midbass with 16 Ohm Znom, 89dB sensitivity, and a pretty smooth response curve. Can be paralleled in an MTM or TMM arrangement for 8 Ohm Znom, and still hit 89dB on-axis sensitivity after throwing away 6dB for full baffle step compensation. Combine with a tweeter of around 90dB sensitivity and you have a tube-friendly system that's easy to drive and will achieve quite decent SPL with little power.
If you crave sensitivities up in the 100s, then you're kinda limited to horn systems with their attendant colorations. (I did hear some big Klipsch models some years ago that truly did justice to loud brass with modest power: big band jazz sounded SCARY real! Only trouble was, vocals and everything else took on a kind of "brassy" character.)
Reference 3a has a much better driver than that, which doesn't even require a low pass filter (direct amp connection). Add a tweeter with 1st order xover and space them right and not only are they 92db/watt and about 8 ohms they are also time coherent!
They work well with everything from about 8 watts and up as long as your room is not too big.
-
I've only heard (never owned) a few Klipsch, Cerwin Vega, JBL and Altec Lansing horn speakers over the years. All had awesome macro and micro dynamics but became fatiguing rather quickly, especially on vocals, which sounded hard and edgy.
The Avantgardes have received a lot of good press, and I'd sure like to hear them, even though I could never afford even the "baby" model. What are some others you think sound really good?
Newly I listened to one old big ALTEC loudspeaker made in 1970's and I fell in love with this old big guy. It has different sound characteristics compared to "modern" today loudspeakers. The human voice and midrange instrumental frequencies are sooo clear to my ears. Maybe because my hearing capacity are reduced caused by my late age (born 1948)??
But I truely love this kind of "tonal coloration". I can't help my taste.
Djoni S. Sidik, Indonesia
U
Odeon and Lansche both make some awesome sounding speakers that don't really sound like horns from the POV of coloration. THe Odeon Nr. 32 and the Lansche Cubus are both SOTA speakers with killer dynamics and that "breath of life" to them. Awesome stuff. The other German company, Acapella also makes some pretty killer horns...but at an incredible price.
That said I bet some speakers like the JBl EVerest and K2 are also pretty killer. I would also love to hear a JBL Hartsfield(with super tweeter). But the absolute best speaker I have heard comes from Living Voice...the Vox Olympian.
Once again, the best models are not exactly cheap...The JBL Synthesis 1440 Array BG got a really nice writeup in Stereophile a while ago. The "superb" measurements show it to be an accurate loudspeaker. There is a very cool standmount model in the Array series (the 800). It is priced somewhat lower, but still, not exactly cheap. Drool...
Less expensive "horn hybrids" from JBL are found in the LS and Studio series. I have heard some good things about them too.
Edits: 07/31/14 07/31/14
Discussion?Don't get me wrong - I am inclined to agree with the quote in the subject from the thread starter. And my view that the sound of your system should be maximally enjoyable to you as opposed to maximally accurate.
Edits: 07/29/14
Hey Gordon,
Are you planning any football weekends here early in the season? Come for a listen.
Brian
So much music, so little time!
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Sadly no, but I may have a business trip in the fall. I will definately take you up on the offer and maybe a pizza at Pequods.
Edits: 07/29/14 07/29/14
I'm more of a thin crust guy, but that looks decadent.
Looking forward to seeing you.
Brian
So much music, so little time!
So- discussion of the 2nd harmonic being interpreted as lushness? This has been discussed quite a bit, and is often a complaint leveled at tubes by the solid state crowd. Its actually got more to do with topology, as single-ended circuits, generally speaking will make more 2nd harmonic.
It is for this reason that some designers have eschewed the use of GNF in their designs.
I find switching amps ultimately unsatisfying. As Nelson Pass put it:
"Class D amplifiers are switches with tons of feedback."
BTW, I heard MA-2s at Brian's abode in Barrington driving the U-1PX. Very impressive!
.
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