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In Reply to: RE: WHY is "high-end" so expensive -- and getting more so? posted by Feanor on September 27, 2013 at 05:56:17
That is the question of the ages.
But I think the Middle classes, which typically had been the strength of high quality stereo gear, have been squeezed for outlays and stagnant to falling for incomes, at least in the developing world. (Transportation, Housing, Medical, Education costs over the last 30 years have gone nuts)
Also, there are far more things to spend on entertainment now vs 30 years ago - TV's are MUCH better than before and cheaper than ever per square inch of screen (CRT and Projection to the flat panels of today).
But also transportation costs, housing costs and costs of raising kids (such as college education) have all been spiraling upwards over the last 30 years. Not much cash left to splash out on "just a stereo" unless you are an enthusiast.
Aside from lots of mergers and acquisitions, the big boys concentrated on reaching the biggest number of customers with feature laden mediocre sound to go with the flat screens. Most of them really stopped investing in the "high quality sound, inexpensive price" realm.
So we have a proliferation of small companies, who, frankly, have to sell at a high price to stay in business (or as a small division in a large conglomerate - such as the Harman group - you have to have your P&L and ROI to keep up)
If Yamaha, Marantz, Sony, and Pioneer decided to make "ne plus ultra" receivers like they did in the 1970's and sell them to everyone and their brother for 10-20% margins as mass market ... there won't be too many boutique players left serving the middle class enthusiasts and our new complaint will be "lack of choice" - since the boutique players would have to go up the food chain further or perish.
Given the DSD downloads and the Pioneer forays into killer-deal speakers that don't suck - it is conceivable that the big boys might just want to come back. And a future of good quality affordable stereo is not completely a fantasy. Except it will have a mass market label, not a boutique one. Those guys would have to raise prices and performance and chase the rarefied air even more.
(But don't worry the SET and Horn crew will always be there)
==
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
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A perfect example WAS the Japanese high end in the late 70s and early 80s during the golden age of turntables.
I have a Yamaha GT-2000 with optional power supply and vacumm platter. This was am extremely high end design that they made in the thousands.
If a boutique company were to make it today (IF they could given the sophistication of the motor and control system) it would cost easily $20+K. Nakamichi, Pioneer, Sony etc. all made equally extreme and amazing designs...not anymore...sad.
Man, that was great turntable....remember it.....A friend has Japanese turntable with a brass platter that weighed 75 pounds with bearings the size of my knuckles and weighed in total 150 pounds....
What can I say, I love it too! I had a Michell Gyrodec SE and a Voyd "the Voyd" turntable before. They were both really good (The voyd was VERY good but mine was an old one and noisy) but I now see that DD done right is really right. The Japanese figured it out just before the advent of cd. Then it went "underground".
And also an amazing ceramic designed cd player by Kyocera...
Bromo33333: " Small operations, boutique production, small R&D budgets "
Sure. This explained why "high-end" was more expensive 40-50 years ago but it doesn't explain why high-end prices have soared far beyond inflation.
To boil down what I said a bit further. (1) Off-shore competition and (2) widening income gaps have provided respectively the necessity and opportunity to raise price to astronomic levels.
I love the music of ...... Gustav Mahler
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Small production runs, old school distribution systems with one or more middlemen, and hot-rodding/refining mature tech. None are good news for making things cheap to a customer.
Agree that sometimes the sonic good aren't delivered. But sometimes they are. I feel dCS can justify their high prices, for instance. I think Bricasti can as well. Sony's AR speakers - you bet - and in fact for $20-30k speakers they offer a relative value. Pioneer has a great lineup - the TAD stuff for ne plus ultra. Expensive as stink, but they deliver. The "trickle down" in the Pioneer labels go from $10k to $129/pr. All of them solid value for money, though it can be big money.
I think part of the issue is simple - you do start hitting the laws of diminishing returns pretty hard, where for every increment of improvement, the costs can rise exponentially. And you add it into an audience who really don't care about the costs - they want the sound - and the prices will rise even more. And the companies will pursue hot rodding as improvements
I think each design has a technology and cost level that is their comfort zone, and that's what they tend to do best. Most aren't too deep in people to spread it out much.
Some of the perception of "it used to be cheaper" - is in some cases, it didn't sound as good. And in some cases where it did (such as tube gear and turntables/tonearms) - the economies of scale aren't there anymore, and the assembly methods tend to be labor intensive - which will drive costs.
And I do not dispute that some simply charge more. But realize the altitude gives people more room to hot-rod for incremental improvements at greatly increased costs.
==
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
Of course "Small operations, boutique production, small R&D budgets" make high-end more expensive: this is a merely a "truism".But has top price explode exponentially, I look for economic reasons for the phenomenon. The fact that high-end might be better performance-wise than it used to be is beside the point -- rather, what is the economics drives the trend to more & more expensive offerings from high-end companies.
I love the music of ...
Edits: 09/28/13
Frequency Response 45 Hz to 45 kHz (-10dB)
Wheres the bass?
Also in audio the top priced gear is priced like other luxury goods what the market will bear. Much of the pricing is not related to performance.
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