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...If you really, really want to believe they offer good value for the money, then please don't view this clip.
Follow Ups:
This thread is almost too rich in subject matter.
"...If you really, really want to believe they offer good value for the money, then please don't view this clip."
As undesireable as I find Monster products to be I kind of think that many of them probably are good values for the money expecially considering they are mostly affordable products when compared to the more esoteric kind of product I, and other audiophiles, are going to be more likely to prefer.
For what it's worth they didn't test the audio portion of the cables, the digital test seemed to be a bench test so there's no way to know about real world performance in a real system and though they did comment on the structural superiority (which may relate to longevity) this fact got lot in the wash (the girl forgot to mention it).
Give me rhythm or give me death!
...as with all other such tests, is that the issue of electrical noise is ignored.
Any electrical cable can act as an antenna and resonator for RF noise. Even if different cables deliver identical digital information in the lab or in a particular setup, they may exhibit different noise properties in another setup.
A similar problem exists with analog cable comparisons. Two different cables may deliver identical (indistinguishable within the boundaries of the test procedure) performance in one setup, but different behavior in another.
The business about the HDMI cable is just nonsense, and seems to border on actual fraud. For the record, they tell you the same thing at CC.
On the other hand, the screen cleaner is a good product. In fact, BB threw one in when I bought my LG.
Call me a shill, but I'm going to refer to Blue Jean's write-up on HDMI cable where they tell it like it is. BJC offers a range HDMI cables to suit specific applications, most particularly length.
No wonder Monster Cable is trying to sue BJC: the true would crush their profits. (Maybe if AudioQuest and Kimber their patent and litigual acts together they'd be suing too.)
___
Feanor's Classical Music Survey: 250 Compositions
Feanor's stereo configuration
It's not a big leap for me, I always go as low priced as possible. And I love giant killers! What are giant killers? Components or cables that are affordable and sound as good or better than components costing considerable more.Looks like HDMI may be a foolproof connection and the most basic will give full resolution?
Happy listening,
Teresa
Edits: 12/26/08
Looks like HDMI may be a foolproof connection and the most basic will give full resolution?
Go with Audioquest's HDMI....they have 3 models, each with a greater amount of silver content, each with an increasing level of resolution. They are all beautifully built, and offer superb clarity. Don't keep fooling yourself with "cheap, cheap, cheaper".
Another alternative would be Kimber Kable's fine HDMI cables. Since you're a reviewer, you might ask Ray Kimber directly if it's possible for you to receive a couple or three of his offerings for review. Then you can both inform yourself and the PFO-reading public.
Snort.
"Dammit..."
Running a high dollar silver coated AQ HDMI provided the same results as my Blue Jean (Belden) HDMI which is actually far less expensive than even the Radio Shack version.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Happy listening,
Teresa
Teresa,
You don't have a SACD player the sends DSD over HDMI to a prepro or receiver? How come not? In your quest to protect your SACD investment, wouldn't a cheap transport like an OPPO or Pioneer feeding DSD to a mid-fi receiver (with preouts) fit the bill? The Pio DV48/Denon 2809 combo puts you in at under $1,000. What say you?
williak
I will keep my tubed pre-amp and power amp until they die or I die. They are both analog and I like it that way. We listen to analog so I want the output of my SACD player to be analog, besides I don't want any digital corrupting the sound of my LPs.
My SACD player has HDMI outputs but they will not output SACD, not an issue with me at all, the analog outs sound great in 2 channel stereo.
Happy listening,
Teresa
Teresa,
You DO understand that DSD stands for Direct Stream DIGITAL do you not?
Your promotion of analog and disparagement of digital is silly in the extreme as applied to SACD. Furthermore, your stance on tube processing is anachronistic and really somewhat pathetic for one so loudly prominent in their advocacy of digital media. Are you confused or just inconsistent?
williak
I like what sounds the best to me and is a pleasure to listen to.
And yes I do understand DSD is short of "Direct Stream Digital" but it actually sounds more like analog, sort of a major miracle.
From My Space page "SACD Lives"
"I never cared for CD but SACD is another story, it's like the best analog perfected, SACD is so realistic and beautiful it's really hard for me to believe it's actually digital!"
Happy listening,
Teresa
Teresa,
Would you care to take a stab at differentiating the analog output voltage waveforms of CD and SACD created from same master? Would you say the CD waveform is "spikier" or "jaggedier" or "crunched-up-ier" compared to the "realistic and beautiful" waveform from the SACD source?
Whaddaya think?
williak
"Furthermore, your stance on tube processing is anachronistic and really somewhat pathetic for one so loudly prominent in their advocacy of digital media."
williak - a pox on you as I now feel duty bound to agree with Teresa which is something I try to avoid at all cost. :0)
Valves used in poorly designed equipment can give the cliched rose-tinted, over warm, coloured sound we've all experienced, just as porly designed SS equipment can give the cliched bright, hard, over analytical sound which again, we've all experienced.
Correctly implemented, valves are capable of resolution beyond that of SS in my experience because they allow for a simpler circuit, and some of the finest recordings available today were made many moons ago using valve equipment.
Look elsewhere on this forum for the link to the discussion between various recording professionals which includes mention of a recording regarded as an audiophile reference classic, recorded using a ribbon mic feeding two E.A.R valve amps.
Far too easy to assume anyone with valve amps has been seduced with a euphonic colouration.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
For short lengths I've yet to experience and differences in picture quality with HDMI, and I'm someone who uses all silver cables virtually everwhere else.
In fact I do have a 6ft length of Audioquest HDMI I got free with my HomeCinemaChoice subscription and the same length of a QED HDMI which uses silver conductors.
On a 50" Pioneer 9th generation KURO at full HD there are no differences between these two and the plain black HDMI which came in the box with the Pioneer, but the further you get past 6ft, the more care you have to take especially when new formats with increasesd data rates are probably only around the corner.
There are some interesting test results you might want to look at before buying your HDMI cable.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
If you're like the hockey fan in the video clip with a VCR, a Wii, a PS-2, a computer, and god knows what else, he is going to have so much noise and interference from all those switching power supplies and noise-generating garbage that he will be lucky to tell anything subtle like cables.
Plus comparing video images is an acquired skill, just like listening to audio.
Plus A/B testing for video is just as useless for video as for audio.
Being able to recognize the attributes of the sound or picture that make it appear better or worse is an acquired skill. Knowing what's better isn't. In fact I think learning the former can inhibit the latter.
A place I used to work for had two businesses and we shared the same engineering lab. One of the video guys called me over one day to look at two monitors and tell him which looked "better". They were essentially the same but one seemed a little better somehow. He told me that I had "good eyes" because the difference was group delay below the accepted threshold of human sensitivity. Probably the moral of this story is that the 'threshold of human sensitivity' is as much based upon obtaining reasonable production yields as it is on what we can really see or hear.
Regards, Rick
Just a SKY HD box and a DVD player, both connected directly to the screen.
With SCART the differences between video sources was obvious depending on the quality of the lead, so I really did take it for granted that if I paid more for a quality HDMI cable the results would make it worthwhile.
I only need 1.5m lengths by the way so longer lengths might well produce differences in PQ - I'd be interested to hear from anyone else using longer lengths, for instance when the equipment is in a separate room to the screen.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
HDMI in lengths of 1.5ft, 3ft, 6ft, 10ft, 15ft, 20ft, 25ft, 35ft. All operate perfectly within specification. Average cost: $1/ft. This ain't rocket science folks, it's digital. The smarts are not in the cable - they're on either end of it.
"All operate perfectly within specification."
If you check out the test results this isn't the case at longer lengths especially.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Chris,
There is a tremendous amount of FUD concerning HDMI cabling. I had one installer tell me it was critical to run the cables as straight as possible since a bend would lengthen the signal path for some bits but not others causing timing errors in the signal transmission. Uh-huh.
This is digital, not analog. If worse comes to worst, you boost the signal strength with a cheap amplifier and let the smarts at either end figure it out. 1, 0 - On, Off - I got it, I don't got it. Digital.
williak
I understand what you're saying but I've found variations in digital cables between Transport and DACs of CD players and they aren't subtle.
Yes, in theory digital information either arrives or it doesn't and if it does arrive the zeros and ones will be in exactly the same order after traveling down a cable as when they arrived, and the receiver will decode them as if they'd only travelled an inch.
"I had one installer tell me it was critical to run the cables as straight as possible since a bend would lengthen the signal path for some bits.."
Sounds like the installer was trying to save himself having to take the cable around corners to me. Got to give him credit for trying. :0)
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
My experience is different than the other posters. In comparing the AQ HDMI-3's to some stock cabling (on a Sony 70" Plasma) a couple of years ago, the AQ's were clearly better in all parameters. Of course, I cryo-treated the AQ's prior to installation, which certainly helped. Lengths were 2-meter and 3-meter.
I wouldn't doubt your experience one iota and can only assume the stock cable supplied with the Sony wasn't even up to a minimal standard of construction. The reviewer of the cables I link to below does state he's found some 'stock' cables which were uncertified and not up to the job, but of the six well constructed cables he tests he could see no difference whatsoever.
Because of my experiences with analogue conductors I bought the best HDMI available according to reviews and was most disappointed when it offered no improvement over the standard cable whatsoever.
Talking to professional installers confirmed that even on projected HD images far larger than my own display, a properly constructed ('half decent') HDMI did the job just as well as the exotica.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
nt
Enjoy the Music :)
nt
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
but then video is not really that important to me.However the shops across the board are doing their damnest to keep the price of these things very high. When I purchased my Sony flat screen I ended up paying almost $100 for a HDMI cable, *not* because I thought is was better but simply because I really couldn't find anything cheaper at the time.
Now I can get them very cheap via a local guy just starting in audio retailing. I can get stuff from him the next day (he'll drop it off at my workplace) but for many people the effort of getting a cheap HMDI cable is a major pain (eBay purchase, etc.) especially if it means their new purchase will sit idle as they wait for the cable to arrive. Hence they'll, like me then, swallow hard and just buy the damn thing.
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
Edits: 12/26/08
And Monster Cable does make HDMI cables that retail for $49.99 they are Standard speed. Does anyone know the difference between Standard speed and High speed? How slow can cables be and why would that be a problem?
Anyway I guess these shops didn't know about Monster's $49.99 HDMI cable or keep it well hidden!
I did a price search and Sears has the lowest price sells them for $24.99 and many online places sell for $30 - $40. It is very easy to get good discounts on Monster Cable on the Internet.
However as a previous sales associate for "The Good Guys" I can tell you where the major profit is extended warranties, accessories, cables and batteries. So of course they are going to show you the most expensive cables they have and work down.
Happy listening,
Teresa
excessive pricing to me. But again video doesn't much matter to me so if some videophile with carefully selected gear were to claim that some particular HDMI cable made a real difference my audiophile experience would lead me to a least a respectful silence on the matter.
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
Ha, I was just reading about HDMI speed, here's the link. Rick
Q. What is the difference between a “Standard” HDMI cable and a “High-Speed” HDMI cable?
Recently, HDMI Licensing, LLC announced that cables would be tested as Standard or High-Speed cables.
Standard (or “category 1”) cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz, which is the equivalent of a 1080i signal.
High Speed (or “category 2”) cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600).
Happy listening,
Teresa
Monoprice.com and you are all set for ALL your cabling needs.
williak
I remember back in the early '90's hearing from a salesman at a local hifi store that was later bought by Tweeter that Monster paid them an extra "commission" for all of their product sold, above and beyond what the store paid them. There was some discussion of whether this was ethical within the store or whether that should go to the store, but the mgmt ended up letting them keep it. Anyone aware if anything like this goes on now?
It's called 'upsaling' in marketing speech.
When you go to MacDonalds and are asked 'would you like fries with that?' or 'do you want to go Supersized?', it's the same thing exactly and is the most efficient marketing ploy available because you don't have to advertise or go looking for customers - they're already there in front of you with cash to spend.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
not just "upselling". If the salesperson's getting an extra $25 kickback from mfr to sell you the expensive cables, can you believe what he's saying about them? And they don't even give you fries with 'em!
So the more you sale the bigger the spiffs on each item you sell. The goal is to sell more accessories than the other salespeople during the contest period.
But basically trust no salesperson unless you really know them. Even I who believes in complete honestly will not volunteer information if it is going to cost me money. So if you really wanted to buy the most expensive cable I would have sold it to you. However if you asked me and I had tested them I would have told you the results and sold you the cheaper one. But many commission sales people stretch the truth or outright lie to keep from losing commissions.
Remember commissions are $$$$ so I is advisable to do research before buying from commission sales people. The higher priced stuff is better but you may not always need it.
Happy listening,
Teresa
"If the salesperson's getting an extra $25 kickback from mfr to sell you the expensive cables, can you believe what he's saying about them?"
Nope. :0)
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Not just Monster Cable, when I was a stereo sales person I got them from Polk Audio and others including Sony which had a promotion for selling the "ES" products.
Spiffs are legal.
Happy listening,
Teresa
and their investigative team(s).
It seems they're not afraid of anyone.
-------------------
jac - desperaudio
how do you get the word out to the average Joe D Plummer?
And purchased my HDMI cables from parts express. Interesting piece, although I too am of a differing opinion on analog interconnects. They do IMO make a difference as some brands Ive used include the likes of Streightwire, Transparent, MIT, Siltech, Homegrown Audio, Dayton and yes Monster. It still makes one wonder how much snake oil is out there adding trivial discourse as well as undue cynicism to the legitimate products.
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Yes, Monster cables are overpriced...agreed. HDMI or digital comparisons are a little tricky...as long as the HDTV gets the one's and zero's, what's the difference? However, using that train of thought, there should be no difference between a $50 CD player and a $2500 player...anyone compared the two...could you tell a difference? I can! When you do comparisons, what was the original quality of the source units, how good were the TV's at comparing the quality of the cables? Did you compare HDTV around a $1000 vrs $2000 and on up. How about different brands. Were the cable connection points cleaned with electronic contact cleaner prior to comparison. How about using Blue Ray DVD as the source units. Testing is never as easy a media people make it.
As far as the nerd in the lab...these bozos will also tell you that standard electronic circuit output is far superior to tube output stage, and they will supply the statistics to prove it. Anyone compare the two? Lab results are useful but do not provide definitive proof in my opinion.
The report did make a good point, do you "Due Diligence" before walking into a store with money to spend...dahh!!. My experience has been that most high end cables are overpriced. Sometimes they make a difference in quality and sometimes they don't. Do you homework, use the blogs and listen to as many people as possible. Don't overpay, look for markdowns, used cables ...etc. Most importantly, don't assume one comparison means that all high end cables are junk...that will also be a mistake.
"If I had a nickle for every dime I own...I'd be half as wealthy as I am today"
Sadly, this is true for the vast majority of cable makers. You have to put them in the bag also, not just monster. That's called fairness.
Absolutely true, why do you think most magazines (the for hire marketing arm of mfr's) promote the idea that unlike everywhere else in life, that blind comparisons don't work.
They "don't work" because they usually show that when you don't already know which cable is which, that you can't hear any difference, certainly none like the differences in price's suggest.
On the other hand, you can see with the modern ethically indifferent business approach, it is clearly logical to pursue this stuff as a business like the "M" has.
Cables, exotic feet and knobs are some of the few things a non-technical end user can fiddle with even if they have little or no impact on the actual operation and a plausible "engineering like" explanation is all that is needed, little or no engineering needed.
Thankfully one can easily imagine improvements cables and feet bring and the psychological rules that govern this "suggestion and influence" are well known, somewhat proportional to cost and the principal of business operation.
We see this everywhere but most are unaware of the nonsense all around us.
Do you really think you can magnetize your gasoline or that foot pads can suck impurities out through your feet, or that these cloths "make you", its all imaginary, suggestion, with a plausible (to you) explanation.
Sadly, it has been the proliferation of these "greed driven scum bags" that has turned hifi audio into somewhat of an embarrassment in the commercial sound and electronic engineering area, hifi often referred to as the "high futility market".
Bottom line, want to find out if cable, amplifier, cd player A is better than B?
Compare them side by side, at your leisure, with your own system, at your own pace, WITHOUT knowing which is which.
Why does this idea causes some die hard believers for foam at the mouth?.
Best,
Tom
NO ! That's my point!
-
-Wendell
Making false claims about Monster Cable could be considered the fault of the store's sales people and the reporter was able to 'see' the claims were false when she compared them herself.
What if Monster set up a comparison themselves in the store to mislead the customers themselves though - how bad would that be?
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
that is NOT a Monster promotion but a store promotion as it is written in black magic marker.
Monster promotions are professional looking in full color. This store is just doing this to sell more Monster HDMI cables as they make more money for the store and the sales associates.
I'm sure Monster Cable is not complaining either as long as the store keeps ordering more Monster cable.
Happy listening,
Teresa
I don't believe this video because I have had the exact opposite experience with my son's guitar.
Went from a cheapy guitar cable to a Monster "Rock", and It was like day and night. No noise and clear sound with the Monster. Prior to getting the Monster, I thought his guitar was defective and I was about to take it to the shop.
> > Went from a cheapy guitar cable to a Monster "Rock", and It was like day and night.
Does that mean I need to throw away all electric guitar recordings that predate Monster's introduction of guitar cables? It is kind of sad to find out that Hendrix didn't have a good guitar sound since he died 9 years before Monster Cable started business.
Guess that includes Cream, Blind Faith, Les Paul, Chet Atkins and an endless list of other guitarists. They couldn't possibly have gotten a good sound without Monster. Into the dumpster with all of 'em.
And on current recordings, where do I find the indicator that shows Monster Cables were used. I want to buy only approved recordings!
Not at all. I have not said that there are no other good cables beside the Monster.
"Guess that includes Cream, Blind Faith, Les Paul, Chet Atkins and an endless list of other guitarists."
Yep - if they'd had Monster Cables they could have made it big, shame about that Hendrix dude too...
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
"I don't believe this video".
If it was false I'm sure the guy who posted it would have been sued by now or at the very least the page would have to have been removed.
The point is, customers were not seeing the difference made a monster cable over a cable from another manufacturer, they were seeing the difference between an all digital connection and an analogue one.
Very deceptive.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
surely with hdmi, but with analog signals, there's a difference between cables. Now I am not saying Monster is the best, I am sayng they don't rank that badly against the other big names. By jacking up their prices, thet left room for new entrants offering quality at lower prices.
With hdmi, the connectors make the difference and the overall durability of the cable, which may be a benefit or not depending on the users. The customers have not done a durability test.
I love how you totally gloss over the fact that Monster tried to mislead Joe Sixpack by comparing a digital HDMI picture to an analog composite one.doesn't that strike you at all as a bit "deceptive"?
Cheeseandcrackers, why didn't they just use an RF modulator and feed RF over channel 3 instead.
What's next? Comparing their audio cables using FM radio for Monster and AM radio for the competition? Oh, wait. Maybe I'm a little late. Didn't I hear where they frd a signal through four feet of their thick cable and a large coil of several hundred feet of thin wire for "the competition"?
Now that's corporate ethics to admire!
Edits: 12/27/08
"Now I am not saying Monster is the best, I am sayng they don't rank that badly against the other big names."
I haven't tried Monster's HDMI cables and wouldn't say they are any better or worse than those from another manufacturer, and in fact if they do a well constructed cable for the price Teresa quotes (under $30.00) then fair play to them.
I wouldn't buy anything off Monster because I don't like the way Noel Lee does business, but that's not to say his HDMI cables are any worse than someone elses.
"surely with hdmi, but with analog signals, there's a difference between cables."
That's not my experience, but if Monster believe that there HDMI cable is better than a competitor they should set up a demo using their own HDMI cable and the HDMI cable of a competitor.
If a demo was set up using Monsters component analogue connection vs a half decent, supplied in the box HDMI I don't think they'd be very happy and I don't think they'd sell any component leads either. :0)
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Nice link.
In modern business, anything that leads to the greatest sales with the least cost is effective. This is why nowadays a dollar spent in marketing the image of technology brings more sales than a dollar spent in engineering.
Too bad the same strategy applies to most of home audio.
right down to bottled water... :(
Best of the season!
She got away easy. This would also play big in Denmark, where shop keepers and salespeople are still helpful, Except in places like Fona, Merlin and Elgiganten - yup all American knockoffs
"Live free or die"
The type of media coverage we get in this country blows compared to Canadian journalism. There is a program on the radio called "As it happens" or something like that and the interviewers are smart enough to know when questions are being dodged and actually call people on it. That rarely happens in the US.
Anyhow, this kind of story would never air in the states....
Interesting piece, though it only covered HDMI cables and their affect on picture quality.
Edits: 12/25/08
With HDMI there really is no need for 'exotic' cables unless the run is over about 8 metres where poor screening/conductors becomes an issue.
Analogue cables in audio are a different matter completely and I'm sure most of us have heard the improvements made with better cables.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Joe Sixpack is jumping on the HDTV bandwagon and it's low hanging fruit.
Besides, do you think that his markewting of other products follows a different ethical staandard?
I just meant that I don't think one can necessarily extrapolate these findings to include speaker cable and analog interconnects, that's all. The piece didn't try to make a blanket statement about all cables--I'm not saying it did, but it is possible some might be left with that impression. I also would have like to seen the test done with a side-by-side comparison of TV's instead of having to move from one side of the room to the other. (It may have made no difference, but I would liked to have seen it.) I don't at the moment own any equipment with HDMI connections, so I have no experience in this area.
Edits: 12/25/08 12/25/08 12/25/08
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/long-hdmi-cable-bench-tests
"... I don't think one can necessarily extrapolate these findings to include speaker cable and analog interconnects."
I can.
There is a difference I can see between video component cables and composite video but I haven't seen a difference between different brands of component cables or between brands of composite, etc.
And I get a beautiful film like picture which so much better than the "S" connection on my previous TV.
Happy listening,
Teresa
i use a $1.99 hdmi cable off ebay-cost more to ship-about 4-6 dollars total
and i will put it up against a monster hdmi cable any day-
my tv looks great-
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