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Okay, on another forum I am asked to try a power conditioner before I bash them. But I'm not about to drop $2k on a Shunyata when my Audio Note system has no noise or hums or any other obvious grunge.
But I figure hey I want to try one on the relative cheap and so over to a pro company called Furman. hey if the pros are using it then maybe it's not a snake-oil scam. Now I look at the Furman PL-8 Series II for about $160.00 rack mounted. I'd have to use tender cups or spikes.
Features
* SMP+ provides the highest level of protection available
* LiFT significantly reduces AC line noise
* E.V.S. protects equipment from dangerous overvoltage conditions
* Zero ground contamination circuitry assures delivery of pure AC
* Two retractable, long-life, low-heat LED lights with dimmer for rack illumination
* BNC connector on the rear panel allows connection of any standard gooseneck lamp
* Eight rear panel outlets and one front panel outlet
* 15 amp rating, with circuit breaker
* Three year limited warranty
Now if this is good enough for recording studios then I figure it to be a not bad in home solution to a problem that may or may not even exist.
Right now I'm using, shock horror, the wall outlet.
So does this really work to get rid of all noise and is the Shunyata much better and how from a technology standpoint is it better than the Furman?
This is a short video description of all the 15 and 20 amp Furman conditioners which seem to all be under $400.00
Follow Ups:
I run my Kagekis off of a Furman balancer. The difference between using the balancer and not using the balancer is small, and frankly I have a hard time determining if the result is a plus or not, but, I already owned the balancer and it does afford some protection from voltage spikes.
I get a much more decisive and positive result using a Shunyata conditioner on the front end (linestage, phono, tuner, CDP). This is essentially a passive device (power is run straight through, but radiated RFI is "absorbed").
Thanks.
The problem is the Shunyata is $2k.
The thing is this is not an audiophile issue it's purely an electrical issue if it exists and it does not make sense to be spending on audiophile name plates in my view. Thus a professional version (hospital grade) or units like the Furman which would be put on a rack with piles of other electrical gizmos affecting everything should work to clean a dirty signal.
The Audio Note transformers, especially in integrated versions of the amps may already be shielding most artifacts that are perhaps being picked up in separates due to the longer interconnects.
Who knows. I still want to try one but I prefer to try an inexpensive and easily returnable one. Basically I have one outlet to drive the OTO, a one box CD player and a MM turntable. I have a TV in the room but connected to another outlet and not running when the stereo is running.
I think you are going in the right direction. Furman makes excellent gear. I use two of the units linked from here. I replaced about $4,000 of high-end audio conditioners with $1,000 of Furman gear and haven't looked back.
I don't know the pro model you mentioned however.
The model I recommend has a special Power Factor correction circuit. They have super-charged my Shindo amps giving them slam and bass unlike any tube system I have heard.
Overall the Furmans are quieter, less colored and more dynamic than most of the high-end conditioners I have tried.
I have tried a few power conditioners from $150.00 to $2000.00 and returned all as I could hear no difference. I really think our smaller population and our power supplies not being taxed to the max give us clean power. I never hear a difference in sound at different times of day or night. Also you have a great system that takes care of such problems anyway.
aftermarket power cords and conditioners address RFI noise generated inside your home via the numerous digital devices hanging off the AC line and radiated energy caused by wireless routers, cordless phones, and cell phones. The villain is not the local sub station.
rw
Why? Because it is a cheap fix. An isolation transformer that costs about $60.00. I am certainly not going to buy a power conditioner for an imaginary problem that I don't even have. As I already stated I have tried a few and they did nothing.
Actually when I had my Sugden and my Marantz receiver I had a tremendous hum from both amps caused by the tv cable. My Tube headphone amp had no problems. I phoned the Cable company and they fixed the incoming wires coming into the building (not grounded properly or something). The hum went away.
Still I own two tube amplifiers and I wonder why they don;t have the problems that the solid state amps have. Before I bought tube amps I was continually warned that Tubes caused MORE problems not less. I find that odd.
Apparently there are relatively inexpensive hospital grade isolation transformers that might help digital products. For $50.00 that's not a bad gamble.
I have a BIG problem with hum from the cable tv feed, even though my audio system is separate from my video stuff (connected only by being on the same power circuit). Even an isolation transformer does not cure the problem. My only recourse is to unplug the cable whenever I use the stereo system. This problem suddenly occurred about a year ago, and, of course, the cable company has been of no help except to boost the audio signal to drown out the same hum when I use the tv.
PHOTO: Powervar 10A isolation transformer power conditioner (with partial of MacIntosh MR77 tuner, Revox B160 tuner and Audio Research D130 amplifier).
RGA,
I had almost completely ignored both power and cables for almost 15 years, in 2005 I was still using interconnects from 1990 and had only plugged components into either the wall outlet or with my 80's Audio Resarch preamps into component mounted outlets. However, in 2005 I decided to try solid state in the office- I'd used tubes since 1985- which also had an HD recording setup with Yamaha S90 synthesiser through to the compouter attached. At that same time, contractors working on the house put a surge through and my bloved 1990 Sony 27" and a Pioneer DVD player literally went up in smoke. Further, the combination of the recording gear and computer soundcard was making an unacceptable ground loop hum and I felt there was noise in the Revox B160 tuner probably from the computer.
Faced with the surge disaster, the ground hum, and what I felt was probably RF interference, I decided to try and solve the situation with a power conditioner and I bought a Powervar 6.5 Amp on Ebay for about $60 including shipping. As Audio Research hasn't provided outlets on the chassis for a long time- my LS3 (1996) doesn't have them, so the conditioner, if nothing else, provided the needed number. The Powervar is an isolation transformer conditioner with RF filtering and surge protection common in hospital equipment use and my supposition is that hospitals probably use these only two or three years and replace them. The 10A Powervar I bought later was unused in the box marked "Baptist Hospital" This Powervar new was over $1,100 and weighs I think over 20 lbs- that big transformer.
In short, I plugged all the audio, recording, and computer into the Powervar and the power amplifier (Audio Research D130) into the same wall outlet and I had amazing inprovements. A The ground hum was 95% gone- eventually I was able to eleiminate it completely, the noise floor on the Revox tuner was next to zero, and I felt the whole system was quieter, had more authority, and was more dynamic. The only problem was that the 6.5 A output probably didn't have quite enough heasdroom so is everything was on and going at the same time, there could be a slight constraint on the sound.
But, given the overall success, and that I know have an office system, a recording system, a main system, and the office computer and etc. all separated, I've since bought three more of this type conditioner, an 11A Oneac (main system), a 10 A Powervar (office system), and recently a 6.25A Oneac (office and computer). The original 6.5 Powervar will be the recording conditioner. If you try this style conditioner, I'd suggest buying only 10A or higher- these go to 12A- as a way to insure headroom, and then plug your power amplifier into the same wall outlet to avoid ground hum. ALso, these have vaying number of outlets- from 1 to 8 and I'd suggest getting one with a minimum of 6 outlets- you'll fill them !
I'm a real believer in these hospital conditioners, and as the most expensive one of the four I bought was the 10A Powervar at $75 plus $25 shipping- the 11A Oneac was $50 and as it weighs 43 lbs!- the shipping was $40. The original price of the Oneac was over $1,300. These hospital power conidtioenrs are an inexpensive way to improve the sound and protect your stuff. If it doesn't please sonically, just shift it your home theatre or office equipment and you'll have the best kind of protection. If I'd had one of these on my TV and DVD a couple of years ago, they would have saved me $1,000 in replacement. I've not tried those very expensive audio coniditoners, but keep in mind the original cost of the hospital isolation transformer ones are $1000-1,400 so there is some equality in terms of quality and engineering of components.
Next time, I'll talk about the noticeable improvements to a Cambridge Audio 640C CD player using an Audioquest NRG-2 power cord. The electron supply quality really does make a difference!
Cheers,
Bambi B
Thx for the write-up!
You're apparently happy with what you're hearing. You're skeptical that a PC would improve it. You don't have the world's most open mind on the subject. And you figure you'll start with a cheap one if you do anything at all. Have I got this right?
I have three of the things -- a Tice Power Block III and two PS Audio P300s. Amps into the Tice, front end gear into the P300s (one for SS/digital, one for tube gear). I'm satisfied that they do what they're supposed to, sonically, and wouldn't be without them. They've protected my gear from surges and other power glitches a couple of times.
But I wouldn't sweat it if I were you.
Well I was heavily skeptical of SE tubes too but I have one and SS has done nothing to bring me back. However I have been told I haven't heard what my system can do because I don't have a power conditioner. Yes I'm skeptical - but I would like to try it. Even a cheap one may at least tell me something - if it makes a difference even a little then it's an experiment well spent.
Someone is telling me about a dedicated isolation transformer for the cd player - that might be worth a try.
I guess I put it that way because my first two power conditioners, an Adcom and a Panamax, didn't tell me much either. The Tice III, bought after reading some reviews, was an entirely different story (it helped that two audiobuddies had one too). And the PS Audio P300s (actually regenerators rather than conditioners) were a revelation. Don't know anything firsthand about the Furmans. BTW, these things take a while to settle in and the effects can be subtle until you really listen to what they're doing.
Hey, do you have a dedicated line, or have you looked into getting one?
Can't Dave - Living in an apartment and who knows when I'll be moving again.
Good point buddy.
Nothing's ever easy in this silly hobby of ours. I have to kind of go with Richard BassNut Greene - I can't hear an actual problem and I really don;t want to star chasing ghosts when my obvious problem - my entire turntable rig is a big gaping pit of despair.
Hey Rich, I'm sorry if I missed it but what are you using for a phono stage?
The Audio Note OTO phono SE integrated has a phone stage built in.
> ...I can't hear an actual problem and I really don;t want to star chasing ghosts when my obvious problem...>
...most likely with a good power conditioner, you will hear an improvement.
And then when you switch back and hear the difference, you'll realize you had a problem.
That's the way it works most of the time in audio with upgrades...
...the Monster HTS2000.
It's about $199 at Circuit City or Best Buy and if you don't like it you can return it.
It was designed by Richard Marsh and is very good - I use one on my CD player.
That's where I'd recommend you start - your CD player.
Then when you hear the difference and like it, get the Shuntaya - and when you like it even better, you can still return the Monster.
Maybe start with an over sized isolation transformer for each separate line.
They should be configurable for balanced power with plenty of headroom.
Then you have a choice
You would want to have some protection (fuses, circuit breakers, MOVs and maybe a soft-start circuit)
Just a thought!
Julien
"There's someone in my head, but it's not me"
I had a 60Hz hum problem a while back, and bought a Tripp Lite isolation transformer. The damned thing reduced the hum slightly in a couple of component but didn't eliminated it. And the big problem was the transformer hummed far louder than the components ever did!! I sold it and put up with the slight component hum. The humming eventually stopped for whatevr reason.
___
Feanor's list of 250 Core Classical Compositions
Guys
before you condemn or promote power conditioners its important to realize that there is a plain power conditioner and the Balanced power conditioner.The balanced power is the one you want..
I'm one of the biggest skeptics when it comes to new things because so many things are nothing but snake oil such as 1000 dollar and higher power cords and gold element fuses.I test everything with a distortion analyzer and scope and waveform analyzer to verify what I hear,and to make sure that it did in fact make a justifiable change.
In the case of the balanced power conditioner, I had brought it home and hooked it up and all of a sudden the sound was very anemic,lacking in dynamics and punch so I immediately disconnected everything from it but I did leave the unit plugged in..This is a panamax 5500.
Anyway I own a huge collection of vintage tube gear and one day I was working on one of my Knight Kb85 power amps with el37s and I had gone to plug the rca jacks into the amp from the preamp and I got the WORST 120vac shock I ever got in my life.It grabbed me and wouldn't let me go until it blew the fuse in the amp.What had happened was the Martin logan Descent sub has a switch mode power supply and going thru a preamp created a potential between the Knight amp and the sub ..It was only with the knight amps tho and I have 3 of them.
Anyway I thought this would be a great time to hook the balanced power back up because it is at least an isolation transformer if nothing else.When I hooked it up,the amp sounded very good like it always did but even more refined plus it wasn't losing any dynamics like the citation 2 did the when it was first hooked to it when I first got the power unit.
I decided to hook the cit 2 back up and sure enough it sounded wonderful going thru the balanced power conditioner.The only thing I can think of is there was a break in time on the Bal Power Cond. and maybe it had to learn the power line at my home and set parameters accordingly.
On with the test..I let the cit 2 play for 4 hours straight and it was powering my Martin Logan Monolith 2 ESLs at full throttle and if you know anyone that owns a citation 2,they will tell you they run super hot and this one was no exception..With the BPC tho,it ran 36 degrees cooler and when I tested the power and distortion levels on my Tektronix AA501 and my sencore SC61,the power went up 6 watts and the distortion dropped by 2 tenths of a percent at 1khz all plugged into the BPC.
I then became more curious than ever so I looked at the 60cps wave form coming out of the wall and it was AWFUL..It was symetrically clipped top and bottom on the sine wave and I thought WOW,this what was going into my equipment so when I looked at the wave form out of the BPC,it was accolades better and then I realized why the amps would run much hotter out of the wall than thru the power conditioner..
Now remember to ask yourself,what happens when an electronic component heats up? Resistance goes up and therefore loses power as in the case with the power transformer running 36 degrees cooler.The transformer does supply the amp's energy so I want to make that transformer as happy as I can so it can do its job to the fullest.Your probably thinking thru all this,why bother? The reason I did was I needed to prove to myself why such a big improvement.
Now remember a power conditioner is a not a balanced power conditioner.You have to get a balanced power conditioner and not just a plain power conditioner.
One more thing I want to mention..Every time we have a power outage,the BPC senses the slightest change in voltage and goes into protection even before the power goes off..It does it within a fraction of a second.
"I then became more curious than ever so I looked at the 60cps wave form coming out of the wall and it was AWFUL."
Something changed in power generation technology and what you saw appears to be the norm now. Your local utility might have distortion component specifications posted online. Some I've seen specify content maximums beyond the 10th harmonic of a 60 Hz fundamantal. If you're ever wondering what makes it so hard to eliminate the buzz in that AC filament powered direct-heated SE...
RDF
You have to understand things like plasma TVs and digital communications are having this effect on our power lines.Its getting worse to. Even with the BPU its not perfect but its much better..Also the Balanced conditioner kept the line voltage more stable but yes I have the noticed the Buzz in DHT tubes and I use a hum pot but DC filaments work ok to but just dont sound as good IMHO.
I don't think so. I've seen the effect of UPSs, computers, etc. on isolated generator power. This is different. The utility service looks pretty much the same at home as it does feeding the 20 rack-mount computers at work. The waveforms distortion limits conform to published utility specs. I've read the same description from you and from DIYers from Europe. Too much similarity for coincidence.
We may never have all the answers but even being a ham radio operator like I am, have noticed in the last 10 years inparticular that the airwaves are full of static crashes but and reception on the lower bands from 40 meters on down is becoming nonexistent from all the digital crap out there...It does have an effect because the clock inside the microprocessors is a noise generator and thats a given.
I came across this article a year or so ago when I was looking into power conditioning. Plitron was willing at that time to sell retail. This will give you balanced AC but obviously does not have surge protection, etc.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/feature-article-isolation-transformer-8-2003.html
Conrad
Conrad
thats basically the transformer but I think you can make a nice one with that transformer.
"Okay, on another forum I am asked to try a power conditioner before I bash them."
Good idea. You've got no idea what you're talking about until you do try one.
"But I'm not about to drop $2k on a Shunyata when my Audio Note system has no noise or hums or any other obvious grunge."
So what's a lack of "obvious grunge" mean? If you don't know whether using a power conditioner will make a difference and you don't know what kind of difference it may make, then you don't know whether you've got any "obvious grunge". What's obvious often depends on your experience and once you hear a difference, you can pick things that previously weren't obvious to you because you know what to listen for. At the moment I'd say you've got no idea of what's obvious and what isn't.
"Now if this is good enough for recording studios then I figure it to be a not bad in home solution to a problem that may or may not even exist."
Well, I'd say that it isn't "not bad" in a home situation for a problem that doesn't exist in that situation. I think you need to find out whether or not you have a problem before you start making up your mind about anything and, really, the only way I know to do that is to try a couple and find out if they make a difference.
Really I don't find your stated position particularly logical. You're really in a "don't know" situation about whether you have a problem, whether conditioners can make a difference, and if they can make a difference whether a particular one you haven't tried is likely to do a good job in your situation. Even if you knew you had a problem and you knew conditioners could make a difference, there's no way you could know whether a particular one was capable of doing something in your system that would satisfy you without trying it out in that system.
I've tried several conditioners now in my audio system and in my HT system. I now run with no conditioning in my audio system, largely because I've felt that every conditioner I've tried has imposed some dynamic compression in that system. In general there have been differences in sound with different conditioners in that system, each has had some positive and negative effects, and some have been better than others but in the end I've felt unhappy with all of them in that system. On the other hand I haven't noticed any dynamic compression in my HT system which is certainly of lower audio quality than my audio system, and the results there have been a noticeable improvement in audio and especially in picture quality and sharpness. I wouldn't run my HT system without one. On the other hand I'm very happy with the results I get from power cords in the audio system and I haven't bothered about that in the HT system, not because I don't think they'll make a difference but simply because of the cost of doing something there where there are more cords. Neither of the 2 conditioners I've been happy with in that system has cost as much as one of my power cords in the audio system.
Having said that, one difference between the 2 systems is that the audio system is on a dedicated line while the HT system is not. Another is that there's a lot more digital gear in the HT system, in fact everything except the sub has digital componentry, and I suspect part of the improvement—maybe a big part of the improvement—in that system comes from keeping digital components isolated from each other.
I think you need to try at least one in order to see whether they make a difference, and at least 2 or more to find out whether different conditioners work differently with your system. I somehow doubt that you're going to strike it lucky and pick the best out of the bunch purely on price at your first go. I think you need to get a bit of personal experience under your belt before you start leaping to big conclusions about whether or not something will work or is good enough in your system, and I think you need to start by getting some sort of feel for what kind of differences can be made and whether or not you think they're important to you. $160 may not be too much to spend if you're happy to spend that on a fact finding expedition but if you decide it makes a noticeable improvement and that something else which is more expensive makes a bigger and worthwhile improvement, it is $160 that would have been better kept towards the more expensive conditioner.
My advice is try before you buy if you possibly can, and try at least 2 different brands before you buy if you can, especially if you can try a couple of different models in each brand in order to get a feel not only for what different approaches do but also what different levels of implementation in each approach can do.
David Aiken
Only a dollar at the dollar store
peach and blueberry flavors are my favorite
can also be used as salad dressing
If you have no hums or noises, then why would you spend money on a power conditioner which would make no audible difference (except maybe in the imagination) ... when you could invest your money in some high sound quality audiophile CD's or vinyl, getting good music AND good sound quality for your money?
Are you thinking about solving a "problem" you don't have.
.
.
.
.
Richard BassNut Greene
"I know what I hear" is often an audio fantasyland
I noticed that the dollar stores have speaker cable and interconnects for a dollar too.
Don't knock'em until you've tried'em!
I get that all the time from subjectivists and tweakers, seems apt to me in this context also...
(nt)
you don't have any sources of spurious noise in your house such as digital devices or those having digital power supplies. Ok.
Quite a few of us, on the other hand, have CD players, DVD players, TVs, cable boxes, TiVOs, computers, routers, wireless phones, cell phones, microwave ovens, washers, dryers, dishwashers and fluorescent lighting fixtures.
rw
nt
Richard BassNut Greene
"I know what I hear" is often an audio fantasyland
1. You are speculating (my guess)
2. You have actually tried some units and found no difference.
Which is it? If choice (2), which units did you audition at home?
rw
Only a dollar at the dollar store
peach and blueberry flavors are my favorite
can also be used as salad dressing
If you have no hums or noises, then why would you spend money on a power conditioner which would make no audible difference (except maybe in the imagination) ... when you could invest your money in some high sound quality audiophile CD's or vinyl, getting good music AND good sound quality for your money?
Are you thinking about solving a "problem" you don't have.
.
.
.
.
Richard BassNut Greene
"I know what I hear" is often an audio fantasyland
how about one of these. I built these on the production line as my summer job in college for a few years and then safety tested them in a previous job. The transformer isolated line conditioners are excellent products for filtering out the non 50/60 HZ stuff from the supply. From what I have seen in the audio specialty line conditioners these may be a better value.
For what it's worth, RGA, I have not found that the power conditioners I've tried (Audience AdeptReponse and Bluce Circle BC6000) improve Audio Note gear. Both change the sound a bit, the A/R pepping it up, the BC6000 firming it up; but in my estimation, neither result was an improvement. Probably a matter of taste. The BC6000 changed the AN gear least, but it didn't up sounding quite like AN gear.
Both do seem to improve the sound of Manley and Blue Circle gear, however. The A/R adds a tasteful bit of pep, the Blue Circle a more noticeable dose of smoothness, ease, and refinement. Both drop the noise floor appreciably. I used both conditioners into dedicated lines.
that the more expensive power cords and line conditioners don't really need to be added in sound quality terms - I suppose An would make them if they were necessary.
If this is indeed the case for all Audio Note equipment then in fact it makes their price of ownership drastically reduced because if you have to add a $2500.00 power conditioner to other gear but note for AN then .. well do the math.
Yes, also true of power cords, which can be a huge saving. But when you get home (Korea?), do put in a dedicated line(s). Cheaper than LC's & PC's and immediately audible, in all good ways.
I'm back in Canada but I live in an Apartment for the next 4-6 months. Then I'll be teaching but I don't know where. I'm trying for a job in either Switzerland or the UK with my back-up being Canada, Japan, or America (only if full medical is included).
I unpacked all my gear after sitting for two years in boxes. Everything works great.
What do I do to get a dedicated line? If it involves the power company I'll skip it for now.
Nah, just an electrician, who runs a separate line (or two) from the box to your listening room. Since my house is on a slab, mine runs outside along the base of the siding through a conduit, then enters the house where my outlet box is. Normal folks run them under the floor from the box (generally in the basement), then up through the floor behind the baseboard. It cost me around $550.
Well, the Furman is a reasonable choice on objective grounds - you get some power line filtering and some transient protection without breaking the bank. Transients are quite common on many, perhaps most power lines, due to switching on and off of appliances (e.g. refrigerators, heating and cooling systems,etc.), computer power supplies dumping some RF noise from switching power supplies onto the line, etc., lightning strikes several miles away, or whatever. Yes, a good power supply is supposed to filter those out but remember that electrolytic capacitors, which are present in almost all electronics, often do not do a good job of filtering out RF transients because at those frequencies they have an inductive component that may allow those transients to go right through. Gives some piece of mind as well. Will you hear a difference? Maybe, maybe not.
why don't you just try it and let us know what you think? After all given that the folk on the "other forum" have helped influenced you to go from:
... ------ was clearly against line conditioners noting quite correctly from an EE point of view that the last 5 feet of cable does not make up for the thousands of miles outside the house of wire. Electricity does not get dirty and the very notion of this is 100% preposterous. ------ knew it then and if they don't know it now it is 100% to make a buck of the extremely gullible. Power goes into an amplifier and ti is 100% the responsibility of the amplifier to regulate power or control if you will. There is absolutely NO SOUND associated with electricity coming from a wall outlet.
to:
What about a professional grade power conditioner from Furman. Pro gear is often better and far less costly that audiophile versions.
...
The fact that there ARE professional grade units makes me more of a believer already.
in just 24 hours it seems you'd be well served by shielding yourself from further influence... wouldn't want to see you suffer whiplash from violently shifting about (metaphorically speaking bien entendu).
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
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