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I am contemplating a new 2 Channel only system and wanted to know about people's feelings about the following:
1. Ayre (C5XE + AX-7e + Thiel?Sonus Faber? )
2. Naim (SUPERNAIT + CDX2 + Allae)
I am philosophically attracted to Naim, but I like the Ayre as well. Hrm ...
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Follow Ups:
I have the CD5 and a power pack(whatever the hell they call it. It at least doesn't begin with K) and have used it with Tubes, SS of several brands etc. and I don't think they have to be in an all Naim system. I am not sure what people are talking about when they say Naim is forward and bright, mine isn't although a CDX that I borrowed definitely was. YMMV
I have the CD5 and a power pack(whatever the hell they call it. It at least doesn't begin with K) and have used it with Tubes, SS of several brands etc. and I don't think they have to be in an all Naim system.
All right - people have convinced me that my focus may be a bit too narrow!
So .... I will post up another topic asking the question:
"I like ROck and Alternative usually, and Jazz when relaxing - what would be the best system in your opinion to do this?"
Since I already have a system with inefficient speakers and a bucketload of power ... I would like to see what can be done with less power"
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Pick the right speaker first then worry about the amplification. Which Allae speaker are you considering?
"Which Allae speaker are you considering? "
I thought there was only 1??
[And thanks for everyone so far!]
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Whatever you decide on, you'll be looking for something different later on, so don't spend too much :))
Still, pick the speaker first whose compromises you can live with, then worry about the amplification. In my opinion, more sensitive and efficient speakers with simple crossovers, relatively fewer drivers, and no metal in the tweeters play music better and are more satisfying in the long term.
"Whatever you decide on, you'll be looking for something different later on, so don't spend too much :))"
Isn't that the truth? I have a 5 channel system that does movies really well. MUsic pretty well, but not as good as the movies. BUT, I find myself in a back room more often than in the "TV room" - so I am looking into a 2 channel system for that room.
I am also even eyeing the back room as a dedicated "listening room" though it is knee high in junk at the moment! :P
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Any reason why it boils down to Ayre or Naim?
The Thiel CS2.4 is one of my backup speakers. Are you intent on keeping it? Some people will tell you to go for Ayre, others will tell you to pick Naim. Obviously, it comes down to personal preference.
My friends and I had the Naim CDX2/XPS2. While the XPS2 does clean up the sound, when you factor in the total price, it's not worth it. Plus, some trouble CDs (Genesis' eponymous album, Iron Maiden's reissued Seventh Son, the Robotech 20th Anniversary soundtrack come to mind) would not play in the CDX2. For some dumb reason, both the Naim and Ayre CD players do not have the "time remaining" function, which is of utmost importance to us (but not to most audiophiles).
If you have the CS2.4 in a small or medium-sized room, you better be sure you check out the volume controls on those amps. Many times, the sound is too loud, even with the volume control at or near MIN. If this is the case, you'll have to look elsewhere.
The Ayre is balanced, if that means anything to you. The Naim reverses left and right nomenclature, so be sure to check this, when you are using non-Naim sources.
I have no idea where people come up with the stereotype that these Naim pieces are good for dance. I'm a pop/rock/dance fan, and the Naim's retarded, plodding, disorganized, choppy sound pisses me off. When we played Erasure's "Here I Go Impossible," it was as though the music were dough, and some kid mashed it. Adding the XPS2 does organize, line up, and clean up the sound, but for US$10,000, you could do a lot better.
And don't think I'm just picking on the Naims. Go over to digital Asylum, search my posts, and read my honest criticisms of other CD players, such as the EAR Acute, Esoteric DV-60, and Meridian G08.
This stuff is expensive. That's why it pays to dwell on the negatives. Those negatives, over the long run, grate. Audiophiles who overlook those negatives are the ones who later on get the urge to upgrade. Trust me, I'm a prime example. I don't want people to repeat the mistakes I've made, and that is why I am always pointing out flaws, or factors to be wary of.
-Lummy The Seahorse
"I have no idea where people come up with the stereotype that these Naim pieces are good for dance. I'm a pop/rock/dance fan, and the Naim's retarded, plodding, disorganized, choppy sound pisses me off."
What! PRAT replaced with RPDC!
I would say that I've only ever heard Naim gear played through Naim speakers as it should be, but even so I'm surprised at your comments although I don't doubt this must be what you hear through your own speakers in your room.
Naim and PRAT usually go together like eggs and bacon, so if you're not even getting that it's a poor show.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Hey Lummy...what are those metallic looking cylinders on the Naim pieces?
Bruce
Funny thing about Naim gear is that, though the chassis seem pretty dense, they are prone to vibration. While the music was playing, we tapped along the top plates, and the sound changed. In fact, when we did this to the BAT VK-300x SE, we discovered that the 6H30s were microphonic!
Many Naim users experiment with different shelves and footers, each effecting various degrees of change. In my rooms, the CDX2 benefitted tremendously from the HRS pucks. The XPS2's transformer often buzzes, and I have no idea why that buzz was louder in my home, versus at my parents' place.
But as you can see from posts here on AA, opinions vary a great deal, regarding Naim products. If you happen to be one who loves Naim, great! Go on, enjoy, and forget about the rest. If you don't like Naim, please tell us where and why it failed to please you, so you can tip others off, ensure that they don't fall into the same pits and traps.
Well, It boils down to Ayre or Naim becuase of the dealer I am working with.
He stocks both - and when I said I prefer Alternative a rock - he said of his stuff Naim or Ayre is likely to "do it" for me. :-)
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
*First off, there's no messing about with speaker placement, they sit against the wall.*
A newer range Naim speakers work also in a free-space arrangement.
The Allaes or Ariva, for instance, can boom if they are placed too close to the rear wall. An -SATs can work on both. The SL2 & DBL are, however, still need to be placed right up against the rear wall.
You still need to *mess around* for the better performance.
* Secondly, the system is sonically, technically and philosophically in alignment. No more playing with interconnects, speaker wire...anything.*
With an addition of the phono sockets, a listener now can play around with various aftermarket interconnect cables. Speaker wire, OTOH, is still a case by case.
Sonically, I think, using a provided cables yield the best intended results, however.
*It's done and it is very revealing of the source material.*
As anything some of the system configuration can be. But not all the time especially when you use a non-Naim speakers.
I prefer the Naim sound, but it's not for everyone. Ayre strikes me as very accurate, uncolored, and a tad too forward for my metal ears (I actually have a metal prothesis in each middle ear).
If they sound close to you, that just shows how differently people hear react to different gear.
Greetings from the sunny Brønshøj riveria on the banks of the lovely Utterslev Mose
Oh, I like them both musically, but I like the "cohesive whole" offered by Naim - single system setup.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
I find Naim to be a one trick pony - it's a good trick however if you like dance music but it's not for me.
Haven't heard anything from Ayre as they don't appear to demo equipment at shows in the North of England.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
I think Naim gear is pretty good stuff but I haven't found the stuff that's exactly right for me. That being said I find your comment very hard to take as Naim gear is usually fairly low in power and IMO dance music hardly is it's strength.
You might be basing your comment on the fact that lots of people use terms like PRaT, etc. to describe the sound of Naim. If you think dance music benefits from Naims take greater than any other kind of music you are entirely missing the point.
Nothing wrong with that but I'd recommend Naim to people who get excited about hearing and listening to music/songs more than being impressed by visuals and sonic impact.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
"You might be basing your comment on the fact that lots of people use terms like PRaT, etc. to describe the sound of Naim. If you think dance music benefits from Naims take greater than any other kind of music you are entirely missing the point."
Er no - I'm basing my comments on having heard Naim gear play dance music through NBL speakers which I believe are over 90dB efficient, and before that through DBL's.
Assuming that the original poster is contemplating an all Naim system he will her basically what I heard, which is a system that above all else delivers bass lines in a distinctive 'Naim' way - bass which is lean and mean and which makes most other system's bass seem indistinct and lacking in quality.
Unfortunately this impressive ability to follow a bass line and bounce along - I refuse to use the dreaded PRAT terminology (oops!) - also equates to a forward, hard sound elsewhere in my opinion and unless the original poster listens predominantly to bass driven music (ie dance) he might be better looking elsewhere.
I can't quite see why he has limited himself to Naim and Ayre however, but now that he has he really needs to decide what music he will be listening too most.
Naim gear does have many fans and it could suit him down to the ground, but if it doesn't he is then in the situation where he has a full system with the same basic sound, and replacing one component to add a bit more warmth for instance isn't really an option, especially if Naim's own terminations and cables are used.
Just my thoughts obviously.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
*I'm basing my comments on having heard Naim gear play dance music through NBL speakers which I believe are over 90dB efficient, and before that through DBL's.*
Ha..Thats where valve amps come in handy. :D
"Ha..Thats where valve amps come in handy. :D"
I've currently got 6wpc with all the PRAT a PRAT fetishist could want, and in fact my PRAT glass doth floweth over and as I type now I've got waves of PRAT licking at my feet! :0)
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
It's strange how sound 'sounds' to some people. I prefer the Ayre stuff to Naim for the very same reasons you prefered Naim to Ayre. I found that the Naim kit was really forward and bright where as the Ayre was more relaxed.
It's a funny old world,
Enjoy,
K
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