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I've never had the opportunity to switch CD players/transports with the same DAC on my rig. My question is what influence do different transports have if you use the same DAC? Schiit Bifrost (non multi bit latest incarnation}.Thanks.
Follow Ups:
I just had a pleasant surprise re: transport ...
I got a Yamaha CD-S300 with intent to use as transport and ended up having fun with it. Takes forever to burn in, but when does it's ... wow this so good for peanuts, enticing sound.
Enter DAC, used Yulong DA8, in no time it's ... hate the Yulong, hate the Yamaha (with or without D8). :(
However I can suffer some before giving up, and did, but was near shelving the DA8 until decided to load down the Yamaha.
The S300 burn-in was alleviated somewhat by Foculpods under the feet and 4-5 lbs loading on top. After it settled I discovered the top loading was killing the top end, without is when the fun started.
End story ... use that same top loading on S300 when used as transport and ... Wham, great sound!
D8 used for CD only so no idea about USB or headphones - don't use either
I recently purchased an Ifi SPDIF iPurifier ($150.00 Music Direct), and very happy with the results. The SPDIF iPurifier is a reclocker that attaches directly to a coaxial digital input. Can be used with both RCA and Optical cables.
Soundstage, imaging, and instrument delineation were greatly improved. The iPurifier comes with its own very good 5v power supply, but for fun I purchased an Uptone Audio LPS-1 Ultracap power supply ($410.00 Direct from Uptone). The LPS-1 took the iPurifier up many notches in clarity and absolute black back round with bass that is off the charts clean. Do a search there a many positive threads and reviews about the SPDIF iPurifier.
Heck everything is returnable so for about $550.00, which is a lot less than a transport upgrade, you can hear for yourself and send back if not impressed.
Digital set up: PS Audio PWT > Aural Thrills Active Silver Digital Cable > iFi SPDIF Ipurifier with LPS-1 > Digital Amplifier Company HS DAC
Philippians 2:9-11
...that you had to spend nearly 3x the price of the product for an "accessory" power supply to get the full benefit of the product.Every electronic circuit in the world, from audio to video to computers, from analog to digital to you-name-it, is nothing more than a modulated power supply, so I can believe it. Just an interesting observation and not in any way intended as a criticism.
It's funny how we have (literally) been programmed to believe certain things. Few people would do what you did. Just as few relatively few people who have spent tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in hardware will balk at spending $500 on a lifetime subscription to Roon (which I am one of, so I'm not being hypocritical here).
Edits: 11/10/17
Are your power amps (VX-5 Twenty) voltage switchable so if one buys the amp in Hong Kong/UK and moves to the US/Canada can they be changed?
Cheers,
Richard
> > Are your power amps (VX-5 Twenty) voltage switchable < <
Unfortunately, no. It would simplify our inventory and production tremendously (power transformers are one of the single most expensive parts in any audio product with a linear power supply), but the problem is that using multiple and/or tapped primary windings simply doesn't sound as good as a single dedicated primary winding, where all of the turns are used equally.
It's probably a bit like having paralleled output devices, but where the devices aren't well matched. That's kind of a "hand-waving" explanation, but there is definitely more leakage flux and inefficiency with multi-volt primary windings.
If you are just going to move once, the transformers can be replaced at the destination country by the local distributor, but it's not a great setup for someone who is planning to travel back-and-forth. One could also use external step-up/step-down transformers, but that would hurt the sound even more. Sorry, we've not been able to figure out a way around this one. Switching supplies can easily do it, but I've yet to hear a switching supply that compares with a linear supply.
Hi Charles
It is just one thing I am considering as I plan to be in Hong Kong for the next 10 years - but this is China and things happen. I still bought a turntable here that I won't be able to take back to Canada due to the frequency and voltage difference.
It's a matter of knowing what I will have to sell and what I will ship back to myself. Soundhounds in Victoria BC has a full service center.
I'm also looking into class D due to their high watts, light weight and small size. Although back 10 years that also meant high failure and bad sound. But it's been awhile so perhaps new technology has improved them. Still no feedback has generally sounded better to me so we'll see.
> > I'm also looking into class D due to their high watts, light weight and small size. Although back 10 years that also meant high failure and bad sound. But it's been awhile so perhaps new technology has improved them. Still no feedback has generally sounded better to me so we'll see. < <
I'm also in the same boat. Ayre's design philosophy is to only make products that we know are superior to the competition's. There are obvious advantages to class D - smaller, lighter, and cooler temperatures - all of which means less expensive.
I keep monitoring the situation, and while class-D keeps improving, as far as I can tell they are not there yet. Every year is a new product that people claim is finally "the one" that is just as good as a linear amp using linear supplies. And every year is a few truth-tellers who admit that when compared, that the class-D amp isn't really quite there yet. For the money, maybe so. But not in terms of actual musical enjoyment. YMMV.
Correct me if wrong, but Roon does not provide any music at all, does it? I have tried it, and it only seems to organize it in a "roon way"... The real Bargins IMHO are Spotify and Tidal which actually provide you Music. IMHO.
Cut-Throat
I never said that $500 for a "lifetime" (I have no idea whose) subscription to Roon or any piece of software was "a steal".
You are correct that it is only a program that organizes and plays music that you either own or stream from Tidal (the only streaming partner to date that I know of). I only pointed out that some people love it and think it's a bargain for $500, while other people love it and think it's a rip-off for $500 - even if they have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for their music library and digital front-end.
I don't personally use it except for testing purposes, as we include it with our QX-5 Twenty DAC. The cost to include it is very low, so it doesn't affect the product's retail price at all. Some customers use the feature and some don't. When we can add a feature for almost no cost that has no impact whatsoever on the performance of a unit, I see little reason not to offer it for those who want it. Do you?
Charles, $500.00 for a lifetime subscription to ROON is a steal! I'm not yet set up for streaming audio, but when I do ROON will be at the top of my list!
No offense taken :)! Yes 3x the cost for a power supply does seem a little out there, but I was looking for a way to get the best out of what I have.
Here are some of the justifications I used for this experiment...
1) With the iPower there was a slight tizz on the high end and the bass was slightly undefined.
2) A super clean power supply is a must for digital playback.
3) There were many positive comments by Sonore microRendu owners who upgraded to the LPS-1.
4) The last "thing" to touch the digital signal is the SPDIF iPower before it hits the dac board.
So why not give it a chance at sounding the best it can? I would only be out about $20.00 in shipping. Which is not a lot to loose for curiosities sake in audio.
Anyway the proof is in the clarity, tonal balance, imaging, soundstage, bass, presence...
Chris
Philippians 2:9-11
Good to read of your positive experiences with the iFi SPDIF iPurifier. I can also report that this device is an important part of my digital signal chain and an indispensable tool for evaluating digital sources and DACs.
My old DAC (Channel Islands VDA2 which I still own) has a PLL digital front end, and this iFi device provides a substantial improvement, most dramatically in the low frequencies, when used with various sources such as the Gustard U12 USB, Sony DVP S7000, and Cambridge 350C.
Even with the Schiit Yggdrasil Gen 5, this iFi device yields some very slight yet noticeable improvements despite the modern re-clocking technology built into the DAC. I even perceive a very slight advantage over the outstanding Schiit Gen 5 USB input board, although I would never claim that I could identify the difference in a blind test.
I have not upgraded the iFi power supply as you have, but for $150 in stock form it's a great tool to have, even if for merely cleaning up the optical output from some ghastly little video streaming device...ummm...one of which I do own.
My first realisation of this was when I bought a Sony SCD777ES.
The Rotel transport I used to think was great, as a POS compared to using the SCD777ES as a transport ,,, to the same DAC.
I still own the SCD777ES, but usually use some old $40 ebay 5 disc changers. (And yes the SCD77ES does sound better, but only a little)
I have found only a few 5 disc changer brands and models work out. Most of them SUCK when used with a DAC. but a few do very well with a DAC.
*************************
Where am I.. Who are YOU!
Agree with some of the other responders below. A few years ago I switched between a McCormack UDP-1 and the "deluxe" version of the same universal player while using the same DAC, and there was quite a positive difference with the deluxe version. Whether it was reduced jitter, improved power supply, etc., I don't know - but the transport definitely matters.
Do you still have both the Micromega and the Marantz? They each have digital outs you can experiment with to start things off.
I definitely have noticed differences between using the digital out of various players. Unfortunately never had opportunity to try any of the dedicated transports like CEC among others.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-much-impact-can-cd-transport-have-sound-quality"If you scale these dimensions up a million times so that the bumps are about 1.2 metres wide - about the same as the width of the crash barrier down the centre of a motorway - the tracking servos in the laser assembly are performing the equivalent of flying a jumbo jet at three million miles an hour, while keeping the nose wheel aligned to within about 20cm either way directly above the central crash barrier as the motorway winds its way across the countryside."
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Edits: 11/05/17
Thanks for posting the link. I've been using a Marantz DV7001 DVD player for 2 channel audio for nearly 20 years. The Bifrost really made a big difference in resolution/detail. I'm hoping the Mictomega being of more current technology and designed for audio only, together with it's power management (ACTS they call it) will make me happy.
What caught my attention is that I have two DV7010's. The one that I originally purchased new in South Africa is a 220VAC used with a step-down transformer when I moved here. It sounds different to the 110 VAC unit I bought on eBay recently as a back-up unit. Electronics definetly suffers if not fed stable, clean power. When your car's battery starts playing up electronic glitches start to appear. I also noticed this when installying CNC equipment in Third World countries where the power can fluctuate, espeacially during peak usage time. I'd alsways install a UPS (a big one that can run for 10-15 minutes) - Problem solved!
No where does it mention the use of buffer memory to eliminate the mechanical jitter. CD players have had this since day one. This technology came from broadcast VTR's. You can't manufacture a perfect circle and therefore there is no such thing as a perfect bearing. So you simply even out the timing errors on a buffer memory read from a stable clock. Now to keep the memory from overflowing or under flowing, the memory controllers talks back to t he servo to keep the data centered in the memory space. The read action is many times faster than the servo response so the output data is stable down to the read clock jitter.Next he says there is often chunks of data missing to the error concealment guesses about what the data should be.
Ok if the data recovery was that poor, then how on Earth could a CDROM ever work? Error correction, yes. But that is exact due to additional data being added to correct the error.. There is no such thing as concealment on a spread sheet or text document. How often does a CDROM fail to read properly. It happens but it's quite rare.
Edits: 11/05/17 11/05/17
Furthermore, omissions are not the same things as errors.The use of CDROM drives, adapted for CD use is (was) not frequent and a relatively late development in CD player history.
Seems like your (deliberately?) conflating IT data with music data whereby for the latter, timing and contiguity are paramount. But I do not intend to go down that rabbit hole on this thread.
There's a corollary with video data serving across networks and how they differ from normal documents which do not require time-sensitive considerations. Just ask anyone who's built and managed shared post-production facilities across institutional networks or regularly books non-contended bandwidth across Amazon servers to deliver error-free, reliable live broadcasts.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Edits: 11/06/17
I guess you have not been inside many DVD or CD players? Many of them simply use an OEM ATA CDROM or DVDROM drive. You can pull it out and put it right into s PC chassis.The article clearly states there are errors in the audio reproduction that cannot be corrected and are therefore concealed. That is a very rare occurrence usually resulting from a damaged disk. Again if the data recovery was that poor, a CD or DVDROM would be impossible to use.
Next you claim this audiophile timing FUD. While it does have some merit on an SPDIF or AES interface, the timing at the front end of the player is irrelevant. At that point the audio is simply data. There is buffering that aligns the data word for subsequent processing - the same as the data on a CDROM.
You claim to have a video background. OK then you have obviously heard of time base correction in video tape recorders? How about frame synchronizers removing jitter in satellite and microwave feeds? Timing jitter can be easily corrected these days and is even in cheap consumer products.
What's your point about video across computer networks? What doe sthat have to do with CD player jitter? Of course your data channel must be big enough to handle the video stream in realtime. Or you can use some form of variable compression that trades image quality for latency. I fail to see how this relates to a CD player.
Edits: 11/05/17
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Isn't that a Mac CD Player pic?
I once owned a Pioneer PD-54 CDP with what they called the "stable platter" instead of the usual open framework. It did take me a bit of time to get used to. :)
I have a feeling it may be an older player, from one of a number of familiar Japanese audio firms.
Whatever it is, it does strike a curious note of nostalgia for a passing technology (curious, as the CD story is a recent phenomenon and in many respects, one that is still being told).
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Each retains something of its sonic character even w/dac.
They do Not sound the same.
/
You might enjoy this Auto-Correct post over on the Central Asylum from about three years ago. (link below)
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
who shot his wife over an email in which it was implied that she was having an affair with his neighbor.
It was the email, then the correct version, was very funny!
I hope someone remembers it and re-posts it
This applies to automatic transmissions in cars, auto-correct spell checking and everything in between. It does the right thing MOST of the time for MOST users, but there is nothing like having full control over the machines one is using... :-)
Assuming that the digital transports are all properly functioning (meaning, are without significant data reading errors), any differences in sound character between those transports are very likely due to difference in the jitter characteristics of each. Now, some DACs are better at rejecting transport jitter than are others, so, you may hear less of a difference between transports when utilizing certain DACs for the comparison.
Depending on the digital interface being utilized between the transport and DAC, it's also possible that any sound quality differences are due to a difference in common-mode noise coupling between the transports and the downstream system components, such as the DAC, preamp and power amp. Unbalanced S/PDIF (via either RCA or BNC) is the interface most susceptible to passing common-mode noise between the transport and the downstream components.
_
Ken Newton
I recently sold my aging Mark Levinson 390S which I had been using as a transport only into the DAC in my NAD M12.
I bought a relatively cheap Teac CD player expecting it to sound nearly as good as the ML if I used it as transport only. Sadly not! The ML transport was streets ahead of the Teac transport. Even if I used the phono or Toslink digital output from the ML (instead of AES/EBU), it would still be far superior
I wish it could be said that any competent transport will serve the purpose, but that is not the case in my experience.
It is a very instructive thing to do. I found at the time when I made the comparison that a then state of the art transport played into an old (albeit good) DAC sounded better than a lesser transport played into a then state of the art DAC. Of course the two state of the art components used in combination as intended was way superior to those odd experimental pairings. Anyway it made me think that jitter rejection is not all that there is to it.
I doubt that things have changed much subsequently with more modern components.
They did not. My friend just bought an old dreck Spectral SDR-3000 transport which is a pain in the arse to use but boy , does it sound absolutely marvelous when it does work.
I do not blame industry at all. With the buying public attention span measured in nanoseconds, before moving to the next best thing,I wonder why the manufacturers even bother to make as little effort as they seem to do.
nt
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