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In Reply to: RE: Bits of Resolution! posted by Thorsten on October 19, 2015 at 08:27:15
I wasn't wrong on (1) co. using a passive output stage, wasn't wrong about their 'reformatting' and now, not wrong on DSD.The process - which is what counts, is multi-bit:
Edits: 10/19/15 10/19/15Follow Ups:
Hi,
> I wasn't wrong on (1) co. using a passive output stage,
Really. I guess using loads of logic switches is "passive" - not that I disputed this, BTW. I merely pointed out that "famous company" on your side of the pond may equate "nobody" on my side...
> wasn't wrong about their 'reformatting'
You where inversely wrong, they do reformat PCM. Others do it the other way around. Neither idea is good. Keep formats unconverted wherever possible.
> and now, not wrong on DSD. The process - which is what counts,
> is multi-bit:
>
> http://www.soundonsound/sos/aug04/articles/qa0804-4.htm
Did you have a word with actual people who design DSD gear or with those sound engineers who use it?
The writer states
"I don't know of any DSD converters that actually generate a single-bit output directly. Most seem to generate a few bits with conventional delta-sigma stages, and then convert that to the required DSD output"
And the DS AD converter he features as Photo does exactly that. Pure Single Bit. Designed by one of the "Bright Sparks" at philips I gave such a hard time earlier on (they deserve it)
So it may perhaps on order to observe that the writer clearly knows Jack very well and not a heck of a lot past prejudice and hearsay about DSD.
There are several DSD ADC Chips that convert at one bit, output one bit and there is never any multibit. They are rather more widely used (in the japanese DSD recorders, to with Korg, Zoom, Tascam) which are pretty mass market minded. For high end studio use EMM, Grimm etc do discrete.
There are currently also two specific ADC chips that operate as low multibit modulators and are then crippled to DSD standard later, because there is no extant standard to allow the transmission of the full resolution. Only one of these two chips sees widespread use for anything to do with DSD, in swizerland with one specific vendor whose prices are legendary. The other I usually see in PCM only gear (good call, it's be wasted on DSD - you can save 90% of the budget and measure as well).
UNLESS you edit, or use this vendors converters (and they promote recording and producing in 384/24 over direct DSD) DSD is single bit. More, several of the DSD production systems out there (including Sonoma - aka Sony) and Merging Tech keep the DSD stream totally untouched, unconverted, unless you do desctructive edits that are not splices...
You should probably talk to someone who likes the idea of Delta Stigma - I do not by a long stretch and I find incredibly ironic that I have to defend the DSD fanbois against rampant misinformation.
Personally I think that if you start with a single bit ADC you are an utter Mike Oscar Romeo Osar November. Nothing like crippling a recording at the start. Why bother using 5,000 USD vintage Neumann Mikes!? Surely you can find something at the local toy shop for 50 cent?
BUT, if you absolutely HAVE TO use such gear with DS ADC's (and it is not as if there is any choice any longer - maybe I can reintroduce proper digital recording systems as a private venture project at some time, it sure is not commercially viable), then the only sin worse than using them in the first place (and yes, I would support 20 - life for anyone caught out, but I appreciate the need to make a living) is to use the on chip DSP to make it into PCM, send it to pro tools and use lowgrade DSP plugins to reallly foul it up and to then mix in the box.
Ok, funk 20 to life... Too kind.
So ask people who record and produce in DSD how many bits... I actually know a fair few.
And while I'd rather have my BBC/Alan Parsons Sony F1 (non oversampling 16 Bit PCM - the BBC mods fixed most of the real problems sonically) than a DSD system, the fact is that a loop through most DSD systems WITHOUT multibit anywhere sounds closer to my Sony Antique than any recent design.
So I'd probabaly rather use DSD, before I use a MBOX (which is "industry standard"). BTW, if you know anyone with one or several PM Model 2 (last ever proper PCM converter) they no longer need "because it's all the same anyway", I am buying.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
The "format converter" is non-starter. Because they cannot (possibly) convert to native-DSD, in a playback device.And on DSD, like before, you're all theory. No actual recordings are made with a 1-bit path. Everyone edits, changes levels, etc.
DSD is multi-bit - complete with decimation and oversampling, 2 things (we were told) it would avoid.
Edits: 10/19/15 10/19/15 10/19/15 10/19/15
Hi,
> The "format converter" is non-starter. Because they cannot
> (possibly) convert to native-DSD, in a playback device.
I am not sure what you mean with the above. It is fairly trivial to convert from (say) 88.2kHz/24Bit PCM to DSD and from DSD to (say) 88.2kHz/Bit PCM. Of course the conversion is not lossless.
> And on DSD, like before, you're all theory. No actual recordings
> are made using a 1-bit path. Everyone edits, changes levels, etc.
Alas, YOU are mistaken. There are DSD recordings done precisely like this, single take, no edits. As one of the possible example, try Channel Classics. As a rule all their recordings are straight, native un-edited DSD. Made using DSD converters by Grimm Audio, among others.
I will also, for completeness sake provide a counter example. The label 2L uses Merging Tech Pyramix and Merging Tech/DSD converters and they record always in DXD, which 384kHz/24Bit PCM, edit, mix and master in DXD and then convert to DSD for release.
Both labels have samples to download for free, so you can decide which approach is more to your liking.
Past that Michael Bishop recently won a grammy for a recording done using the Sonoma DSD recording system, where there were zero digital effects applied, all mixing/mastering/editing etc. were done using analogue devices.
At iFi we have sponsored several DSD256 recordings in Japan (Rie Fu and Technoboys Pulcraft Green-Fund recently - both what you might call "Popular music") where again any processing was done in the analogue domain.
> DSD is multi-bit - complete with decimation and oversampling,
> 2 things (we were told) it would avoid.
DSD can avoid these, presuming the engineer doing the recording cares to do so. So what you were told was correct in principle. DSD can be single bit and avoid decimation.
As to does it avoid "Oversampling"? It samples at a higher rate than 44/16 PCM, so it "oversamples" in that sense. If we accept 2.822MHz/1Bit as "cannonical DSD', then DSD128, DSD256 and DSD512oversample, with the usual benefits of oversampling realised.
I agree that many commercial DSD releases probably started life as 48kHz/24Bit on Pro-Tools and were converted with an M-Box (they sound like that anyway), quite a few 192kHz/24 Bit releases seem to have started the same way.
And again I find it incredible that I have to defend DSD against gross misinformation, as someone who is not entirely convinced of the merits of DSD over proper PCM (e.g. derived from Multibit ADC's) in the first place...
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
I am afraid YOU are mistaken -
You said "DSD is a 1-bit system". It almost never is !!!!!
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