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I just bought a unit and had it delivered Tuesday this week (13 May 2008).
BACKGROUND
I have been reading threads on AudioAsylum for quite a few months. While I spotted some negative comments about this CDP, the overwhelming positive comments and external "professional" reviews essentially convinced me to buy it. I did demo the unit 2 times (once I thought convincing while the other less so).
I'm relatively new to hi-fi. Got hooked on 5.1 digital HT back in 1999 and never looked beyond that until end of 2006 when I bought my first "true" hi-fi gears:
Arcam ARV350 receiver (basic Kimber cables to speakers)
Cambridge 840C CDP (Transparent Link Plus cables to receiver)
B&W805S speakers
Since then, I have on the one hand really enjoyed the sound of music this system has produced, while on the other wondered how much better it could get. This wondering/wandering has lead me to read a lot of reviews/threads (a good deal of which I have not been able to fully understand), bought some cheap Vibrapods to dampen vibrations and finally fork out a lot of cash to buy the SA-7S1 thinking that this could be the only upgrade I might have to make for digital source. An equally enthusiastic friend has helped spiral this interest into something not insignificant in my daily life.
IMPRESSION
I'm setting out brief notes for now since this is my lunch hour in the office. I have intended to contribute back into this site given how much I have benefited from other people's submissions.
1. First night. We (girlfriend and I) thought how awesome the unit sounded straight out of box. We marveled at how we were hearing things that we probably did not hear before. We enjoyed many discs left domant for months. Listened about 4/5 hours straight until bed time.
2. Second night. We thought the sound was still great, but decided to really put it to the test. We made 2 copies of Rosanne (good recoding jazz/vocal). Put 1 in Cambridge 840C (Monster m1000i cables) and 1 in Sa-7S1 (Transparent Link Plus). We compared with and without blindfold. I guessed half right, half wrong as to which was which. Kae (girlfriend) guessed around 60-40 right-wrong.
So far, I must say I'm disturbed and confused. There are certainly differences between the cd players but it's hard to tell. 840C seems to be more laid back and gentle, while SA-7S1 more punchy and forward. But obviously the differences are so slight that I could not guess more correctly than someone who was deaf!
TO BE CONTINUED
I will continue to listen and see if burn-in time makes any difference. I certainly hope so.
I know my amp is weak (just a receiver), but I would have thought Arcam AVR350 is at least decent.
COMMENTS WELCOME
Please let me know if you have comments about my experience and what I could do to fine tune my set up. I will continue to share my experience as I progress over this and next week.
Follow Ups:
I've got the Arcam AVR350 myself and while it's an excellent receiver which is about as musical as you can get at the price, it won't exactly put a digital source under the microscope so I'd imagine that the differences between a very good source and and an extremely good source will be diluted and very subtle.
If you take a long term perspective however, you will find that the Marantz will make every future upgrade of amplifier, cables and speakers much more rewarding so don't be too downhearted as you've made an investment which will eventually pay dividends - just be patient and concentrate on where you want to get to rather than what happens along the way.
What I would suggest is that you have to decide early on whether you want to have the best stereo system you possibly can within your budget, or whether you have to integrate your stereo system with your HT system which will compromise the sound (although there is a cheap way to separate your two channel system using a Yamaha DSP-E800).
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Thanks Chris and everyone for your replies.
I know I've been late in getting back to your notes, and this is due partly to the time it takes to clock 200hours on a CD player - 10 days non-stop play! I will come back soon with more results.
I agree with you that SA-7S1 is a reference point around which I intend to upgrade the rest of my system. I was just a little disappointed (although not entirely surprised since a friend has been reality checking me for a while) that AVR350 is regarded so poorly in absolute terms (even though is is good in its category). I have set AVR350 on bi-amp too and did not previously think there was any obvious weakness in this unit.
Some preliminary updates:
* SA-7S1 (US$5,500 machine dealer in HK) seems to sound better after close to 100hrs. Compared with 840C (US$1,300) on the same set up in my original email, I would liken it to a beast let loose from its chains somewhat. More dynamic and vibrant, making 840c sound more in-a-box. Not a HUGE amount of improvement at this point, but it is now somewhat more enjoyable in my ears than 840c.
* SA-7S1 could not read 3 discs (out of around 30 discs). 840c had no problem reading those discs. I experienced similar problems while demo-ing SA-7S1 in shops. On those 3 discs (all red-book non-SACD), SA-7S1 will simply not play them at all no matter how many times I try (says "no disc" or "cannot play"). On the other 27 discs, no problems at all. So called the dealer and he agreed that agent will deliver a replacement unit this Tuesday. The agent then called and said the delivery will be on Firday (23 May 2008) instead so I could get the "latest" unit. Not sure what this means but I will call dealer and ask later.
It's one of the best, if not THE best, solutions for a single system for both music and HT that doesn't cost the price of a good used car. You're not a hopeless schlub for having this receiver.
In fact, the Arcam's much better for music than every other HT AVR I've listened to - plus, it's highly enjoyable on its own terms for music listening. Don't sell this piece short: you are getting a super processor, a nice preamp, a so-so tuner, good bass management, excellent digital processing and a decent 7 channel amp crammed into one chassis for the price of what many people spend on a stand alone preamp or pre-pro.(BTW I doubt mosty of the posters here have even heard a AVR350.) Most audiophiles have (quite justifiably I may add) little respect for HT receivers as audio components.
Most serious high end *audio* folks have dedicated music systems for their music that will beat the Arcam. I do too. But my two channel rig doesn't do HT either. I loved my Arcam in my HT system and IMO it handled 2 channel and multi-channel music very well. I didn't put my 4k CD player into that chain however. As good as the Arcam is - and it's very good - it isn't as resolving and transparent as the components in my dedictaed system, and it doesn't have the density of images of the better gear - but hey - it wasn't designed for that. Believe me, you could do much much worse. (And many have.)
The 840c is a very nice player in its own right, probably more what the Arcam designers had in mind would be paired with their receivers than SOTA digital front ends. But the Arcam should still allow you to differentiate between players.
Chris has given you words of wisdom. Those B&Ws like power! And the upgrade path he outlined is a good one.
Also, take time to get used to listening to the replacement when it comes in, don't switch in and out, at this stage of the game you'll just confuse yourself.
There are some other things you can do to improve what you have now. I found my Arcam AVRs were quite sensitive to power cords and never used the stock cord with them - much better with my TG Audio or Audience cords, quite opened the sound up, and much better upper frequencies. I also suggest you upgrade your wire - this will make a difference. Dont - buy - Monster.
Finally, let your ears be the judge. A great front end is the key to a satisfying musical experience. The key is synergy, acquiring components that complement each other and work well together so that the whole is more than just the sum of its parts - in audio, alas, without careful matching the reverse is often true. Don't be in a hurry, listen to as much gear as you can. Many are the paths to audio nirvana.
Thanks Harmonia for sharing your thought! I knew AVR350 was a weak link but did not think it was not capable of playing some good music. Of course point taken (from yourself and many others here) that it should not be confused with a real good dedicated stereo amp. And I look forward to my search in the coming months for a good one and will no doubt ask for further advice/guidance from everyone here!
Tonight before this 1.5 week old slightly faulty and now 150hr SA-7S1 is replaced with a new unit, I could comfortably conclude that it has demonstrated abilities significantly ahead of Cambridge 840C, even with my meagre cables/amp/speakers. This may be an obvious conclusion for everyone but I had to hear this for myself.
A few observations for record keeping:
* When I changed filters (for the first time tonight) the A/B testing seemed to flatten again with little difference vs 840C. This is astounding to me and suggests that each filter requires burn-in time?! Seems outrageous...
* I maintained pairing Monster m1000i (around US$200) cables with 840C, and Transparent Link Plus (around US$400) with SA-7S1. This of course could bias the results. But that I could not tell which was a better player on nights 1/2 and now clearly tell SA-7S1 is superior strongly infers positive burn-in effect. The gap now is not small and I would suggest cable differential alone cannot explain the difference in sonic performance. Further, 840C is fully run-in with well over 500hrs.
The replacement unit finally got here yesterday.
The salesman said they updated the firmware. I don't know why they went ahead to replace the machine too. But this is great service and peace of mind practice from Marantz. I hope the new unit lasts for many years (fingers crossed).
The 3 discs that did not work with sa-7s1 now work. However, one of them still needs a few attempts before it will work.
I noticed the sound went back into its shell. Once again could not tell much difference between 840c and sa-7s1. This essentially confirms in my own mind how important burn-in is. The sound is still good and enjoyable though, but now I'm more wary of it.
Am about to buy Istoek burn-in disc. Some other poster put this up (thank you!) and will be keen to effectively burn 200 hours in just 1 day!
Not too much difference between sources....I have my hopes pinned on the Ayre C5-xe or Cx-7e, and then I can finally make up my mind if digital sources make a huge difference or not.
Go with your own ears...if you cannot hear a difference, spend the money elsewhere.
While reading so much about disc players, you should have paid more attention to what so many experienced audiophiles frequently post here:
individual components can sound very different when coupled with other components; it is called system synergy, and it is a very real phenomenon.What ever possessed you to buy a $5000+ player and expect it to sound its best when coupled to a mid-fi receiver/cable/speaker combo? I'm sorry, but the rest of your system is simply not able to resolve the level of performance of which your disc player is capable. Your other stuff is nice, but the SA-7 is among the better players available, at any price.
Can you return it? Do so at once, and purchase instead the SA-11S2, which will give you 90-95% of the performance at half the cost. Then spend the leftover money on better cables and think about a better receiver or, better yet, integrated amplifier. Ditch the Vibrapods. Vibration is not your problem, unless the player actually sits on top of a speaker. The Marantz units incorporate their own excellent vibration isolation.
Sorry to give you this bad news, but it's good advice. You cannot put a $5000 disc player into a $2000 system and get $7000 sound. It just doesn't work that way.
Stick with it; it's worth the effort and the money.
Peace,
Tom E
It's an excellent solution for a combo music/HT experience. The digital nasties are totally switched out and isolated when the amp is running in analog mode. It has surprising resolution and openness for a HT piece, but then it's from a real audio company and not HT specialists. The pre-pro is very good and the amps are quite clean. I wouldn't purchase a "better" receiver because it's not really cost efefctive to do so at that price point - if you go beyond this you really need to go separate 2 channel.
I had an AVR 300 which was a very nice musical experience paired with my Nola Minis and Thunderbolt sub. The 350 is much better than the 300.
Was the Arcam as good as my Cary, Herron, Alon V main two channel system? Noooo, don't be silly, and I wouldn't have put my 4k CD player with it necessarily, but it was very satisfying on its own terms.
nt
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Since then, I have on the one hand really enjoyed the sound of music this system has produced, while on the other wondered how much better it could get. This wondering/wandering has lead me to read a lot of reviews/threads (a good deal of which I have not been able to fully understand), bought some cheap Vibrapods to dampen vibrations and finally fork out a lot of cash to buy the SA-7S1 thinking that this could be the only upgrade I might have to make for digital source. An equally enthusiastic friend has helped spiral this interest into something not insignificant in my daily life.
Give the guy a break..he's new to the audio money pit. :-) He may be planning further upgrades and has certainly learned something about matching components and diminishing returns.
Thanks man, that's exactly what I was planning to do. But no offense taken whatsoever from Madisonears - I did not explain that at all and it would be natural to draw conclusion that I am nuts!
Some folks have discussed break-in for the sa-7s1 on this forum (link below). Give it some time and then do another comparison...
Thanks, I tried that and it helped!
I would stop comparing them for a while and just let the Marantz play for a 100-200 hours before you make up your mind. I am of the opinion that most of us are not very good at fooling ourselves over long periods of time and eventually and at different speeds all of our systems get better and better.
Greetings from the sunny Brønshøj riveria on the banks of the lovely Utterslev Mose
I've heard the SA-11 model. It sounded really nice with AN equipment and my SinglePower head amp. The one you have just needs better amplification and speakers probably.
Greetings from the sunny Brønshøj riveria on the banks of the lovely Utterslev Mose
1. Would be better using identical cables, and preferably better than either one of what you used. Of the two, I only have experience with Monster 1000i, many years ago - didn't like it at all, because of artificially soft treble and bloated midbass/bass.
2. Better amp suggestion seems reasonable, but I would definitely try to borrow one from dealer or friend first.
3. It's very much possible that 840C is fine player. Although, I don't think that repeating the same BS about it being "best under..." for so many times as some people do here is going to bring that BS any closer to truth.
Yep 840C a fine player but I can pick out sound seems colored/restrained/flat vs SA-7S1. Using same cables would be perfect but unfortunately I don't have double of each cable... :( Any suggestion re amp?
The differences between the two players might be more noticable in a more transparent system, but sometimes the differences aren't that obvious. That is why A/B testing can be confusing.
Some would argue that it there is not immediate differences decernable by A/B testing, that there are no worthwhile differences.
About a year ago, I changed out the stock power tubes in my amps. I thought I heard a slight difference in the sound upon changing them, but it was subtle. I came to the conclusion that the power tubes didn't make that much difference. The tubes may have needed some breaking in. Recently, I had problems with a few of my power tubes, so I ordered spares and rather than mix and match brands, put the stock tubes back in there. I found the sound nearly unlistenable. I ended up having to retube the amps.
Something that might not be obvious in a quick A/B test can gain significance over time. I find that the best way to judge a new component is over time. Subtle differences can make a big difference in the longer run. To the average guy on the street, they might never notice the difference.
Thanks for sharing this. I think it is profound and there is an element of truth based on my own limited experience. In the past few nights of straining my ears in intense A/B tests, my observation is that there is a real and significant difference between 840C and SA-7S1. This difference is not subtle. When you close your eyes, you could almost "see" the different pictures that the 2 cd players paint. However, as large as this difference is I could not pick the cd player quickly all the time. I found A/B testing difficult on tracks where the notes swung wildly from end to end. This variation in music itself threw me more than a few times, and often on those tracks I had to listen much longer before identifying source. Also A/B testing requires a good amount of time and effort. I spent hours. Having said that, I do believe (to be seen) that the difference would be easier to detect as it breaks in more and as I upgrade other components. Just my observation/report-back from this episode.
100% agreement with srdavis2000.
My experience is that A-B testing is of little value with sources. The differences in quality between two players will be in the nuances, imaging and detail retrieval - things that you can't pick up doing A - B testing. Your pleasure with Impressions #1 will continue as you pull out more and more CD's you haven't played in a while. That's the true test of a new source component IMHO. There is no doubt that you will need to upgrade your amp at some point to take full advantage of the SA-7's capabilities. Don't do it right away, however - get used to the Marantz first.
Yes, agree with step by step upgrade. I do want to understand + appreciate each component. On A/B tests, I probably draw slightly different conclusion though (pls see my other posts).
I suspect the lack of differences heard is definitely due to the rest of your audio chain coupled with the fact that the 840c is a pretty nice CD player to start with ("The Best CD playback under $5,000 -- for $1499").
If you can, try and borrow a good 2 channel amp from your dealer and repeat the experiment.
Consider the SA7-S1 the first upgrade towards a really super system (-:
Completely agree. The B&W and the Marantz are very capable (I have heard both), probably much more than the arcam. I am sure with better pre/amp you will have a very nice system.
I recently mated my SA7 with Coincident Dragon Monoamps . All I can suggest is to preview this match for yourself . Just amazing .
Thank you, will look into that amp. Any other amps you consider worthwhile looking at the same time?
I have a marantz sa-7s1 and am using the dartzeel preamplifier and amplifier. I would highly recommend the dartzeel as i doubt there is a more accurate, transparent, and organic preamp-amp combination available. I used to own the emm labs much more expensive dac-cd player combination and the marantz is as good as the emm labs.
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