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Yeah, the audiophile but.
Would like more gain plus I have a bunch of 6922 tube family tubes to roll
(BIG FUN!) SO thinking a Freya N might be the answer? NOT the Frya +
(different tube family) but, essentially they are the same pre or close enough
for my needs.
Don't need balanced, but no big deal. The N is NLIP but no big deal, used works.
Basically wondering if anyone here has experience with the two and if the SQ between
the Saga+ and a tubed Freya are of the same caliber.
I REALLY like the Saga+ SQ, and find Schiit to be the Schiit.
Gracias!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Follow Ups:
The Saga + sounded terrific, but I just missed gain.
Sold it, replaced it with a used DB Systems DB-1/A.
The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.
Edits: 09/11/23
Talk about a DB Systems DB-1A, that's almost half a century old. I used one for years in the 70s and loved it. I sure wonder how it compares today. I assume if it replaced a Saga + it must still be a heck of a preamp. Can you comment?
Doesn't sound like any particular frequency range is emphasized. Made the Fried RII speakers sound a lot better, with better imaging and less of an upper mid hump.
But I'm not knocking the Saga. It's a terrific value in my opinion.
The DB-1 has been updated a couple of times since the Seventies. Outstanding phono stage.
The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.
Edits: 09/12/23
Plain looking as a cheese sandwich, but offers good sonics. Had a bit of a Dayton-Wright SPS look about it.
In that day, I had a Frank Van Alstine modified PAT-5 called the FET-5. Kept that until I got an SP-6C which was rather spartan looking as well.
Friend of mine had a PAT-5. When he built it, he was able to order parts that tailored the phono stage to Shure cartridges.
The DB-1 is just a black box with knobs and switches. The guy who ran the old Opus One audio store in Pittsburgh always used to say that money spent on styling was money not spent on sound quality.
The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.
and disabled the outlets.
Replaced the LM301 op amps with LF356, replaced all resistors with Dale RN65 metal films, signal caps with polystyrenes and substantially beefed up the power supply.
I preferred it to the sound of my heavily modified PAS, though I would never have admitted to my PAT-5 owning buddy.
The PAT-4 was another story.
Never heard any of the Van Alstine units.
The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.
Edits: 09/13/23
FET-5 was much better. It replaced an H-K Citation 11.
I used mine to drive my first electrostats, the Acoustat X starting in '77.
I have enjoyed my saga+ for several years. I recently tried a LISST tube substitute device and I like it. It seems to have a little more drive and sounds like it gets more bass out of lower impedance amplifiers.
Saga + with upgraded Coupling Capacitors. I have never ran out of volume with mine even though it's unity gain. Actually, never got past the 3pm mark on the VC and it was pretty loud.
...where unity gain is more than sufficient. Whether unity works in a particular situation is dependent on other factors besides the preamp -- source output voltage, recorded level of music, power amp gain, speaker sensitivity, and obviously one's desired listening volume. Change anyone of those factors and unity gain may work for you, or not.In my case, unity worked most of the time. but not all. Some of my recordings were done at a low level -- for example, there are a few CDs out there that decided to take advantage of the format's 96 dB range and =not= record everything at a level near max. Or, if phono, many LPs had to reduce their recorded level if the albums were 40, 45 minutes or longer. In those situations, the Saga+ fell short.
Edits: 09/10/23
I tried my Freya+ and Kara in passive mode and for me it wasn't about volume level. I was able to achieve loud volume with both preamps in passive mode. However, compared to active mode with gain they both lacked slightly in that full-bodied robustness and dynamics that I prefer.
It has been my experience that passive preamps require more critical component matching between the source to the preamp and preamp to amp. Additionally my best sounding passive setup had a somewhat 'hot' source (Cary CDP) meaning its output signal level was a little higher than typical and very robust sounding.
I've tried my Kara preamp in passive mode but like the Freya+ before it, the Kara sounds much better in my setup in active mode with +12dB gain.
Are there different degrees of gain when using the active part of the Kara?
....I've never fully understood 0db gain in a preamp. Does this mean the amp section functions like a passive? Just letting thru whatever is being output from the source? Or what exactly? Thanks.
The Kara and some other preamps have a fully passive mode and a buffered mode in addition to having mode with gain.
0 dB Gain :
- This implies that there's an active buffer in the circuit. It could be a transistor or tube but it does not amplify the signal level (0 dB = no gain). The buffer provides "impedance transformation" meaning the input of the buffer presents a high impedance load to the source component (CDP for example) so it doesn't load down (or alter) the output signal from the source as the volume control varies . The output of the buffer is a low impedance that provides a robust signal to the amp that is also unaffected by long cables or cables with high capacitance that would otherwise alter the frequency response as the Volume Control varies.
The buffer basically makes it easier to match the source component to the amp w/o worry about cable length, cable capacitance, and how the Volume Control might affect frequency response which can be the case in a purely passive setup.
The downside of the buffer is that it can ever so slightly veil the signal. The most transparent sounding setups seem to use passive preamps but there are drawbacks and component matching between the source, the amp and cables is much more critical.
Not sure how else to explain it. Maybe someone will do a better job here!
It seems like too many source components put out way too much voltage and too many amps are way too sensitive so you end up needing to keep the volume way down. This is true of my all Wyred set up using the digital volume control. Wouldn't mind trying this Kara out someday.
"It has been my experience that passive preamps require more critical component matching between the source to the preamp and preamp to amp. Additionally my best sounding passive setup had a somewhat 'hot' source..."
That has been my experience as well. I bought a Truth (Arthur Salvatore's reference) buffered passive years ago. While its clarity always impressed me, it didn't have the musical drive I enjoyed.
It sat around largely unused for many years, until I bought a PS Audio Stellar phono stage, which has an unusually high output voltage. At some point I cycled The Truth in place of my tube preamp and I gained clarity and detail, and but the dynamics remained.
When I ordered my Geshelli Labs J2 DAC, which I believe normally has a 1.8 volt output, they increased the output for me to 4.0 volts, at no extra charge. My previous digital source, a Marantz CD6006 CD player, had a 2.2 V RMS output and required a preamp with gain to give me the dynamics. The Geshelli, with its modified to 4 Volt output, works well with The Truth.
After experiencing a few passive setups I generally ignore posts claiming that modern sources have sufficiently high output to drive power amps to full volume so there's no need for anything more than a passive preamp. As you know, it's not just about the volume level. I know better too.
You're exactly right, Abe. I don't know what it is about (meaning the cause), but without sufficient source output voltage a buffered passive, even one with the pedigree of The Truth, left me musically wanting.
I got lucky that the PS Audio Stellar phono revealed that a higher output voltage solved the dynamics issue with the buffered passive Truth.
Had Geshelli Labs not been able to increase the output voltage of my J2 DAC, I'd have passed on it, but I'm glad they were able to, 'cause I really enjoy it.
Just lower the feedback a bit as open loop gain is enormous (150 db) with the OPA1656 used. The GamuT CD-1 used in my system from 2001-2012 had a 4V single ended output.
I was happy and maybe a bit surprised that there was no extra charge from Geshelli Labs to increase the output voltage. Granted, it was probably a simple change in value to a couple of resistors, but that wouldn't have stopped some manufacturers charging me an extra $50 for the "modification" .
It paid off for them in the long run, because it allowed the J2 DAC to work with the Truth, which, along with the sound quality, had me anxious to keep it rather than send it back during the trial period.
I always used Active which was way better than Passive mode. The Saga+ got even better sounding after changing the Coupling Caps.
The Saga+ is my backup preamp now with the Transcendent Sound Masterpiece 300b preamp as my main preamp. I get that 300b sound with any amp I use be it Solid State, Tube, or Hybrid. I really like the way the 300b preamp sounds with my Solid State amp.
never has. Tried one (or two...) passives a few years ago with a well loved
tube amp and it just didn't "enliven" the music properly for my tastes.
One was a well-regarded Aural Thrills Deluxe Passive. Nice equipment but a
bit too "sterile" for my tastes, desires. The passive with the Saga+ is just OK
but, well, not tube flavored.
This Saga+ with a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT is just right. Tried two other (one stock)
tubes and that was... OK.
Actually the gain on this is acceptable overall (also never go beyond
3:00, it's the tube rolling aspect(s) of the Freya N that are nipping at my brain.
BUT, more gain won't be a bad thing at all, here.
REALLY like the Class D, tube pre combo these daze, so the Freya N seems
a good choice financially, physically and practically. I do dig the Schiit approach
to audio too.
Perhaps this is just another tube rolling post on my part?
Shame on me!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
and really enjoyed the way it sounded, but, it is only unity gain and I really needed something with a bit of gain. So, I ended up going to a Lyr 3 which uses the same 6SN7 tube in its preamp section, but has switchable gain -- low is +1.5 dB and high is +7.5 dB. It sounds just as good as the Saga and fixes the gain issue for me.
The drawback is you have only one input (or two if you add either the optional DAC or phono card -- you can't do both) while the advantage over the Saga is you pick up a fantastic headphone amp.
The Lyr 3 I have is now discontinued, though shouldn't be too hard to find used on head-fi.org. Their new version is the Lyr+ which has two inputs but loses the option for an internal DAC or phono card. You can also run the new version without the 6SN7 tube.
But I'm VERY tempted by the Freya N because of the amount of tubes on
hand I can roll, and the gain aspect. The Lyr(s) gain sounds like a plus, but
if I'm going apeschiit, I'll be going Frya N, for... the roll.Gracias!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Edits: 09/10/23
I'm thoroughly enjoying my Schiit Kara but it might be more than you're looking for. It offers unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR IN/OUTS.I can honestly say that I prefer Kara in solid-state mode over the Freya+ in solid-state mode. I don't care for passive mode much in either preamp. I get much better dynamics and 'slam' with gain. In my setup the Kara sounds best set to 12dB gain driving my amp over XLR balanced interconnects.
As an aside, even though the Freya+ was good in (6SN7) tube mode it didn't quite do it for me. I was expecting too much having once owned the Cary SLP-05.
SMSL D400EX USB DAC. Mac Mini M2 / Roon, Schiit Kara preamp, NAD C298 Purifi Eigentakt Class D Amp.
Edits: 09/09/23 09/09/23 09/09/23 09/09/23
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