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I just purchased a Mcintosh MC352 amp to drive my Magnapan 3.6 speakers and am wondering what pre might be a good match. I have been driving the Mags with a CJ PV-12 pre which I robbed from another system and Sonic Frontier 160 tube mono amps, but felt the Mags would do better with a little more power. So I sold the SF amps and got the Mcintosh. I want to return the CJ pre back to my other system so I need a pre for the Mcintosh amp. I miss the tube amp sound a little so I would prefer to stay with a tube pre with phono section.
I am intrested in Audio Research. Have read great articles about their hybrid equipment as well as pure tube. Price is a concern but not a deal breaker. Would really apreciate some advice about models such SP-9, SP-11, SP-14, and SP-15.
Follow Ups:
I think the sound of most CJ tube linestages/preamps are so fundamentally different sounding from AR that I can't imagine really liking both. The AR sound is NOT what one would call a classic tube sound (it is NOT warm).
For a more "classic" tube sound, I like Joule, VAC, Audionote (uk), Kondo, and Shindo. Though many can come equipped with a phonostage, the stage often has only enough gain for high output MC and MM and would need a step up transformer for low output moving coils. Although I only heard it at a show, the Veloce battery powered full function tube preamp should be looked into (quiet, nice sounding and full of remotely controlled features in a compact package).
You should certainly look at the tube-base Macs (same brand avoids compatibility issues), and don't rule out solid state. I've heard the 3.6 sound very good with Ayre gear.
HI,
I have owned the ARC SP-8 Mk 2 (bought new and used with the ARC D115), SP-10 Mk 2 (bought new and used with the ARC D115, the Mark Levenson No. 23, and the ARC D250 Mk 2 Servo), and the SP-11 Mk 2 (bought used and used with the ARC D250 Mk 2 Servo) preamps. I had each of these for years so my comments are based on long term usage. I still own and love the SP-11. It's phono stage is still very close to the state of the art.
No piece of equipment can be considered in a vacuum. The remainder of the system always must be given great thought and understanding, speakers in particular. In my case, I have always used ESL's, currently the Martin Logan CLS IIA's. I say this to give you a context to reference for my comments.
There has been a raging battle between the lovers of the SP-10 and earlier designs and the SP-11 and the later designs. There is no doubt that the ARC house sound can be thought of using this dividing point as marking ARC's sonic philosophy as it has changed over the years.
I'm not going to write an essay about this subject. If you want to learn about it, do a search. You will find much information. I will say this. I much prefer the SP-11 over the SP-10. I have not heard the SP-15 but I have read about it. While it is dangerous to take others opinions as truth (including mine!), the SP-11 was considered to be the better preamp. I certainly think the SP-11 is still one of the best preamps ever made. The SP-15 was never as successful as the SP-11 and has sort of faded into history (sorry Elizabeth!).
But, personal taste will probably determine ones choice. The SP-10 has a classic tube sound but is very refined. It has trouble with noise when used with low output MC cartridges. I experienced this personally. The SP-11 is much more neutral, more transparent, more dynamic, is significantly faster, and more detailed yet is smooth as silk. The SP-10 harkens back to vintage tube sound. The SP-11 points towards the modern ARC sound and is one of the best examples of such. Since I try to stay away from vintage sound, thinking it is veiled and not neutral, I naturally leaned towards the SP-11. And I still do.
Just how the SP-11 will do with McIntosh I don't know. I have a fixed philosophy that dictates that the best results are obtained by not mixing and matching equipment especially with high end equipment. I find the designer I like the best and stick with their ideas. Mixing and matching, generally, I don't think works well. So, consider all my comments in this light.
Sparky
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your taking the time to give such a detailed response. I agree that it is probably best to match amp & pre but it is hard to get a tube amp with the power I need without breaking a bank and I don't think ARC ever made any amps that powerful. So going back to where I am now I want to go tube pre but I don't know if I would be happy with a Mcintosh tube pre. I have read rave after rave reviews of ARC tube equipment but never that much about Mcintosh.
HI,
You are welcome. I don't know how much power you are looking for but ARC has certainly made some powerful amps. If you notice in my reply above, I am currently using an ARC D250 Mk 2 Servo amp (all tubes) with my SP-11. This amp is 250 watts per channel and is truly a great amp. Honestly, I can't imagine needing more than this can deliver.
I'm going to give you a link where you can educate yourself about ARC products.
http://www.arcdb.ws/
Sparky
Well, a Mac C46 will sound great with the 352. Mine was a HUGE step up from C38. Check AudioClassics.com. May have the Tube stuff available too, great prices.
You may also want to consider the SP16 ( the version with a phono preamp section) it's the last of their 12AX7 based designs which opens the door for relatively inexpensive tube rolling, the phono section is excellent it has a remote and they are priced quite reasonably used ($1200> $1600) at the moment.
I currently also have an SP9MKIII and an old SP7 (SS and a real sleeper especially for the $400 they currently sell for) and am waiting for Mikey Samra on an SP6B he is working on (if your there Mikey whats the latest ??????) for me.If you go for an SP9 I would make sure it's a MKIII as there is quite a significant improvement over the original version.
Despite Elizabeth's comments the SP10 is really something special but she is correct in her comment that re-tubing it with NOS high quality 6DJ8's/6922's could easily run over a $1000. The SP8 if you can find one at any kind or reasonable price is probably my favorite along with the SP16 I mentioned above but they are almost unobtanium at less than $2000.
Output/Input impedance matching with a Mac SS power amp could be an issue with an SP8 the others mentioned should not have a problem as they are listed by ARC to drive the 20k input impedance of an MC352.
Finally don't buy a fixer-upper ARC product unless you are an experienced tech. They are difficult for a casual kit builder type to work on and if it has to go to ARC for service it will cost you more than a good one would have. Good luck!
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your time.I have considered the SP-16 due to its age and the availability of a remote.
I know this is not the prevailing thinking nor does it answer your question but I have found that the true tube sound is really only had with tube output power not tube input power. I often think that many SS power amps flatten the sound and if you have to choose SS for one stage I would use an SS preamp and tube power amps. I understand that high powered tube amps run into very big bucks but the Mac isn't cheap by any stretch.
I do own a Highly modified SP6B but don't use it much because I prefer the richer 6SN7 tube sonic and switched to Cary which does not seem to be an option here. The ARC amp requires super quiet tubes in the phono section because noise gets loud even at the lower gain setting. I found tube rolling to be a real bear because of that. The ARC High Definition signature didn't synergize well with my speakers as well so as always it is a matter of system integration. Just my 2 cents.
Input Impedance
Unbalanced: 20k ohms
Balanced: 40k ohms
SHOULD be OK, but Mc amps are designed with lower input impedances than some preamps are comfortable driving. For example, many amps have 100k ohm or higher input impedance, including all the ARC amps I looked at.
Not that it won't 'work' but they may not be designed for that. Seems like the SP-10 has a 250 ohm output impedance, which is low enough where it shouldn't be an issue, but hopefully someone with experience will comment.
Of course, I have to say that a used McIntosh C220 would be a great choice! which is what I use.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your time and the heads up about the impedance issue.
Based on a recommendation from a respected source I bought an SP-9 MKIII. I was told it was good for vinyl at a reasonable price. It has been a very good unit. I get a great sound from my Scout. If you really don't care about price, however, I understand the SP-10, is something special.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your time.
.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
I got a deal on a used ARC SP-10. So I tried it.. ahhh??
Anyway, soon enough I bought an Sp-15 off Audiogon. I love the SP-15 and the SP-10 was no where near as good.
(I admit the SP-10 had cheap tubes, on the other hand it is really hyped up, and not as wonderful as the old memories portray..)
So I sold the Sp-10 for way more than i paid, and still offered it for $800 off the current asking prices!.
SP-10 are very overpriced due to the 'legend'
The SP-10 take a BOATLOAD of tubes to run too.
The SP-15 has a tubed phono stage, and is cleaner, better sounding by far*
(with a decent power conditioner IMO) than the Sp-10.
(The SP-10 might beat it with really high quality tubes, but that adds another $1,000. to the cost or more.
I would ONLY recommend the SP-15 to someone who uses the three tube phono section a good part of the time. as it is on whether in use or not. The phono section has the only tubes in the Sp-15.
I kept mine, and use it for a spare phono box.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your time. I am considering a SP-15 but they are few to be found.
I wouldn't own an any Audio Research Preamp of lots of reasons, I would a Shindo or a deHavilland. My comment was that if you wanted the classic Audio Research sound then the SP10 gives it. I know they have made better preamps, I have heard them even in my own system. They're just not for me.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
I disagree with Elizabeth's comment that you have to spend $1000 to get decent tubes for the SP-10. The Electro Harmonix 6922s are quite good. The new Genelex 6922s are even better. There is no need to pay huge amounts for NOS tubes for the SP-10 anymore.
Cary SLP-05
The Mac amp is a great amp. Just be careful when shopping for a tube preamp. As already noted, Mac amps have 20k input impedances unbalanced. That is not a knock on its quality, but an important limitation to most tube preamps. Do your homework.I have the Cary SLP-98P preamp with a Mac amp. The SLP-05 has similar frequency response measurements and I can tell you this is not a good match. I am not dissing either manufacturer. I love my Cary pre-amp and the Cary sound, very musical sounding. It absoluetly is giving me the tube sound I was looking for to mate with a SS amp and it has a very nice phono section. My Mac amp however has too low of a setting for its input impedance. Cary preamps need about 100k input impedance (like all tube amps or real high end SS) to level out the frequency curve. The most noticable effect with my Mac amp is reduced bass. I will be replacing my Mac amp soon, probably with a Sanders Magtech (altered to 100k input impedance). I have Maggie 1.7s.
Scott
Edits: 10/06/11 10/06/11
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